No training available, what do I do now?

Genesis

Careful with that position Mike....

Down that road lies the end of your diving, not to mention Rebreather diving.

Statistically speaking, you are much more likely to die on a Rebreather than OC. As such if you believe that "if just one life is saved isn't it a small price to pay" be prepared to give up what you love - for your own good, of course.

So no, I do not believe that if just one life is saved it is a small price to pay. Indeed, I believe that this really is a matter of absolutes - your right to self-determination .vs. someone else's right to tell you how to live......

Drmike

I dont see how you can conclude that self policing is more likely to lead to legal enforcements than no policing at all. That just doesnt make any sense to me - maybe Im still jet lagged.
Huh?

Your right, it is a matter of absolutes - you absolutely believe that your 'right' to self determine what you can buy under what circumstances takes precedence over the sellers/mnfs. right to decide who he sells it to and under what conditions.

I absolutely dont think you have the right to take away anyones right to decide who they sell anything to and what conditions they place on that sale, be they a manufacturer or private individual. Its their right. In the case of a manufacturer its called liability protection and in the case of a individual its called social responsibility...and in both cases they have the right

__________________
Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you

Genesis

Mike, you're attempting to redirect the debate off an axis you took it down - didn't you like where you went?

Your argument was "if one life is saved, isn't restriction <X> reasonable?" (insert any "X" you'd like)

My retort is that no, its not reasonable, because as soon as you accept it is, for any <X> you insert, the next restriction will be one that could potentially impact YOUR diving!

BTW, I don't object to private enterprises or individuals setting whatever rules they wish - so long as they don't mind me pointing of my fingers in their direction and building my own should I choose that path.

As for "social responsibility", again, that argument can very easily to be used to ban Rebreather diving - or all diving......

Drmike

Well I guess we just have different opinions - nothing wrong with that.

You have been advocating that requiring training certs before Rebreather sale is unnecessary, and that if someone can build a unit that means they can safely dive that unit.

Just for curiosity sake did you yourself do any formal Rebreather training courses or did you self teach? What unit do you dive? I seem to recall a post from you a few weeks ago saying you have never dived one??

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/intro...html#post17279

Im sure you agree its nice when someone is debating, especially on the net, to have an understanding of their real life experience on a subject so as to add weight or not to their position.

__________________
Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you

Genesis

I am building one now.

Virtually all of my diving "advances" from AOW onward have been done without benefit of prior formal training. I view certifications as keys to insert into locks that others throw up in my direction; when I get sufficiently annoyed and find the value of benefit, I will take the class to pick the lock. I've found that this works well for me thus far, although I buy many fewer cards than others believe I should have for the diving that I do these days. Proof that this path works for me is found in the fact that I'm neither dead nor have I taken any trips to the chamber (or any other medical facility for a diving-related malady)

After all, they're called "certifications" - not "licenses." As such by their very name they should be voluntary. To the extent people try to make them mandatory I either add them to cost of whatever someone is trying to sell when I do the value-for-money-spent computation, find a way around it, or choose not to buy.

Thus, if I wish to buy a packaged unit, I will likely have to buy training, and will add the cost of it to the price of the product in determining whether to buy. I have been considering an Optima as a "built" unit, but my willingness to buy is still undetermined - I haven't actually seen a production model that I can dig through to see if I am sufficiently impressed with it to plunk down the cash. At the original announced price the required training still made it worthwhile. I'm not sure that is still true, as the price appears to have gone up significantly from what DiveRite originally announced as their "target".

If I finish my unit first (which I expect will be divable before the gulf warms up again this spring) I'll have a card - printed from my computer, of course. After all, the "class" will be "approved" by the manufacturer in that case, and my proof that my knowledge is sufficient will be that I am still breathing

Andy T

Everyone is entitled to an opinon. However there is a big difference between informed and uninformed opinion.
Personally I will be more interested in your opinions on rebeather training once you are actually a rebreather dive. Just my opinion.

Duncan Price

This might apply in the US but you can sign all the waivers you like in the UK and it won't hold up in court.

Just as someone who's been on a course won't f**k up either. Compare the number (let alone fatality rates) of homebuilders to qualified CCR divers...

You might not be able to buy regulator spares unless you are a qualified service technician but anyone can by a bit of pipe from Home Depot....as for sodalime, well personally I make my own by melting down stalagtites.

Bloody nanny state!

Drmike

OK, lets say (estimate) over 6000 qualified divers and 20 or so deaths - so thats 1/300


How many untrained homebuilders would you say there are regularly diving their units?, - my guess would be less than 100?

How many of those 100 untrained homebuilders are taking their units deep regularly? - my guess would be not many.

Hardly surprising homebuilders have a better safety record is it.

Nobody said doing a course will mean a diver would never f_ck up - but someone did say (in my opinion wrongly) that doing a course is automatically uneccessary if you have the ability to construct a rebreather. Suggesting that the knowledge to build a rebreather is the same as the knowledge on how to dive one. On that I disagree.

__________________
Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you