No training available, what do I do now?

Genesis

LOL!

Well, I guess I should qualify that - I oppose it being "forced" where the "force" is a tying arrangement (e.g. we won't sell you X unless you buy Y)

This is true whether "X" is a gasbag or access to a boat/site.

(In other words, I believe I should be free to buy any unit on the open market, subject only to the size of my checkbook matching the asked price. What I do with it once I own it is properly my - and only my - business.)

decoweenie

Yes, I understand your point.

But I also understand the counter-point from the insurance and manufacturer:

Untrained divers died = insurance pays out
= insurance losing money = insurance cancels coverage
= manufacturer expose themselves to crying widows suing their pants off
etc and etc

Unfortunately, ~2/3 of lawyers in the world live in US so they must find ways to make a living. So everyone pays for it at the end.

And also...

It is probably logical to think that a Rebreather manufacturer who doesn't require certification (i.e. = training = capable in the courtrooms) will suffer from the higher of fatality of untrained divers.

That statistics probably won't do a lot of good when trying to sell products. Just look at the bad name the Inspiration had suffered when there were rashes of fatalities during the first 4 years of production. Yet, some of the statistics presented had shown that the accident percentage is realtively lower than other units when considering the number of units sold.

IMHO, it is not a clean and simple solution that everyone will be happy with...

__________________
"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

Genesis

The problem with the argument about liability (true liability) is that every class I've ever taken, every boat I've ever hired and every site I've ever paid to access has demanded that I sign a liability release that says that even if the organization or person is negligent I cannot sue them.

These releases routinely hold up in court in the US. There's a famous attempt to pierce them (Murley, who died on the Doria and arguably had no business being there - and the instructors and boat owner knew it) that failed - but they certainly didn't fail for lack of trying.

There is no true argument about liability. There are an awful lot of people who would like you to believe there are though.... most of them with a financial interest of one kind or another in you believing them.

As for the Inspiration deaths, that one is easy. There were more of them (count of units) than everything else on the market put together. Of course there will be more deaths and injuries.....

And certainly, if you're inattentive on a CCR you're far more likely to end up paying for your lack of attention than you are on OC. But even on OC gear its not hard to kill yourself by not paying attention. Witness the guy at JB a few years ago who used a bottle full of 100% He for decompression..... once.

This is similar to the crying over "liability by landowners" in Florida (with regards to cave access.) The truth is something else entirely. See, there's a law here that says that so long as you do not charge for access to the land you're not responsible for what someone does or any injury they sustain while on it - you have no duty of care of any kind, not even to warn them of hazards (e.g. that 300' deep sinkhole full of water!) you know about!

I'll start to believe that formal training is per-se necessary when the people who insist that I pay them for it stop talking out both sides of their mouths by shoving a release under my nose that says that even if their training sucks and injures or kills me as a consequence, even during the class itself I can't go after them.

Manufacturers IMHO don't do themselves any favors by advancing "cooked" arguments for their position. If someone will misrepresent one thing to you, what else will they be less-than-fully-honest about?

Of course if you build your own, then you are the manufacturer. Then the only person you have to worry about lying to is yourself

decoweenie

Well unfortunately, we do live in an imperfect world.

But we are empowered to chose our own instructor, so it should be your fault for choosing such a crappy instructor in the first place...

OK, let's stop since we will bore everyone else by

__________________
"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

Simon A

In the UK the most dificult part of rebuilding a reg is finding a source for the service parts!

Simon A

Beanie

Choose apeks then its easy

__________________
Beanie
Gallery Admin & Library Assistant.
www.outlawdivers.org.uk
www.beandiving.co.uk
www.beanengineering.co.uk

Deep Thought

There is a fundamental problem with the logic here when you state: I cannot sue them…You will be the deceased party and it will not be you, but some sniveling- whining relatives who sues the boat owner, property owner, equipment manufacturer, etc.

It would be nice if we would all be responsible for actions that we take, but too many lawyers profit from situations where blame can be assessed to undeserved parties. I have people threaten to sue me for tripping over cracks in concrete on my property, but I can’t post a sign telling stupid people to stay away, as I would be sued for preventing access.

Perhaps we could do our part with RBW and start a poll that would elect an island, state, country, or think big a continent where only smart people who do not sue each other could go and live – of course no lawyers would be allowed.

Until then we have to assume that any person with any assets are subject to lawsuits from people who do not take responsibility for their own actions.

In essence do not blame people who are forced to cover their “_ss” so you can enjoy some recreational activity, take it up with people who legislate laws that allow people to sue.

Above all: rebreather diving is very cool, and its worth any hassle I’ve encountered!

__________________
Creature Of Habits; Mostly Bad

www.gudcscuba.com

dive2dive2000

Very well put! just IMHO too

__________________
Safe Diving,
Martin

Drmike

And (as far as buying direct from a manufacturer is concerned) the manufacturer of that unit has the right to protect his product reputation and company standing by making sure as far as possible that its not sold to people who are not able to dive it.


Now you do not HAVE to do a formal recognized training course to know how to dive it, that knowledge COULD also be gained other ways - BUT you cannot expect a busy manufacturer to be prepared to invest time and expose themselves to possible liability by individually assessing the particular Rebreather diving ability of each person who doesnt use the conventional training route.

You have the right to buy a 2nd hand unit from the open market if you want - and the seller has the right to be concerned about your welfare and the reputation of Rebreather diving saftey in general. For this reason most people are likely to ask to see a cert, unless they know you and your abilities.

I see nothing wrong with this picture.

Do you think we would see more or less deaths if we as a community didnt self police who we sell units to?...if just one life is saved isnt it a small price to pay?

__________________
Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

Drmike

Just because someone knows how to build a rebreather doesnt mean they automatically know how to dive a rebreather (safely) in the same way that knowing how to design/fix a car engine does not mean you know how to drive a car.


A course would teach how to handle Rebreather failures in the safest way such as for semiclosed running, handling high/low po2 etc etc etc. Yes that knowledge can be gained from books, from dive forums from dive buddies .....or even from rebreather courses, it doesnt matter where/how the knowledged is gained as long as it is. You can assume perhaps that a homebuilder more than someone who just buys a unit is more likely than not going to be the sort of person who will seek out and gain that knowledge for himself - but that doesnt mean he will learn it all, learn it correctly or even learn it at all - no guarantee.

But its crazy to assume just because someone can build a rebreather that they will automatically know how to dive it (without gaining further knowledge)

__________________
Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment