No training available, what do I do now?

ccscuba · 19th November 2005, 19:36

Seems to me if you know how to build it why do a course? You already know how to dive, don't you? A lot of the unit specific course content is only about how the unit works and so not relevant to you. The rest of the stuff is just drills that you can practice anytime - I do some on most dives (mind you, they're mostly for real since I have an Ouroboros....). You already know what all these are, and what the likley problems are going to be, or you wouldn't have been able to build it in the first place.

The only issue you'll have without a ticket is if you want to dive in the US, where they frequently check these things, or possibly your life-insurance.

PeteS · 19th November 2005, 20:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by ccscuba)

The only issue you'll have without a ticket is if you want to dive in the US, where they frequently check these things, or possibly your life-insurance.

Surely all you need to do is have a card issued by someone approved by the manufacturer? You are the manufacturer......

cameron · 19th November 2005, 20:46

Give me a break, it's an orifice with a bypass button, a monkey could use one.

Well I think that is a very simplistic veiw on the KISS valve. Getting your head around the actual physics is important and is not always aparent, unless you deal with gas through and orifice or hydraulics on a regular basis. For example there was a "chocked" article around here somewhere. Going into the trainning with a good understanding of the mechanics will give him a leg up to ask the more intricate questions. Once you know everything behind the operation and setup of the KISS valve, it is pretty easy to dive, But off the bat there are certainly questions that an instructor can help with...

cameron · 19th November 2005, 20:49

Seems to me if you know how to build it why do a course? You already know how to dive, don't you? A lot of the unit specific course content is only about how the unit works and so not relevant to you. The rest of the stuff is just drills that you can practice anytime

Especially for a homebuilder any and all knowledge is important. All rebreather information is relevant to you regardless of what unit you dive...

abowie · 19th November 2005, 22:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by zepp)

What you say, i agree, no-one can teach better than yourself. I have mine built 85% and just use it in a pool in o2 mode as I have to add some ppo2 monitors. i will then venture into the depths of ohhhhhhhhhh 300centeMETRES or so to learn how the bouyency characteristics are.

I disagree entirely.

When Harry and I started doing accelerated deco with high PO2 nitrox there was no one in SA that we could find to teach us (or indeed to ask questions of) so we did a bit of reading and just made it up as we went along, blending and all. While we didn't come to any harm, and it did work, when we finally did some proper tech diving courses they were a revelation. While what we were doing worked we were doing a lot of it in less than perfect ways, some of them just plain dumb.

Any activity in life, whether it be diving or not, needs to be taught. And having been both a student and a teacher, I can tell you that some people are more difficult to teach than others

What a course will teach you is a whole lot of useful tricks specifically tailored to the unit you're diving. Some of them you will have thought of. Some of them you will not. Some of them might just save your life.

Reinventing the wheel is just stupid. Why would you bother?

decoweenie · 20th November 2005, 05:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by ccscuba)

...drills that you can practice anytime - I do some on most dives (mind you, they're mostly for real since I have an Ouroboros...

Care to expand on that ?

We just don't hear too much about the Boris here as far as performance and reliability issues, so I am curious...

Deep Thought · 20th November 2005, 06:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Simon A)

Ok here goes the story. I have a home built rebreather and obviously I cant get training on it! The unit is Inspiration lungs with a draeger DSV, an EDO4 scrubber and a KISS valve. I'm quite happy that I know my way round the 'breather, but what's the best way to gain the skills?
I have dived it and know it works, currently to a max depth of 7.5m (thanks Stuart) and I now need to get some more time on it, nail the comedy bouyancy aspect and then work it up to about 40m.
I'm confident that I can dive the unit without killing myself, but I feel that I'd nail the bouyancy and drills aspect of it faster/more reliably if I could get some (formal or informal) training and feedback.
The question is what path to take? It would be fairly easy to borrow an Inspiration or a KISS and do a course. Is this a good idea? or am I better off finding a friendly KISS and Inspiration qualified instructor and taking an extended skills development session informaly?
Should I just find an "experienced" rebreather diver who will "mentor" me? (if so how do I measure/define how much "experience" is required?) or do I just go ahead and teach myself? (This could be a long process). Or is there a mixture of the lot that may suit me better?

Hoping for help
Simon A

Simon

If you are confident that you can dive the unit without killing yourself, then get out and dive the unit in controlled environments until you learn the buoyancy and drills aspects.

You sound sure, but unsure about seeking a mentor. Some divers are better than instructors and some instructors are better than divers so it really boils down to whether you have acess to experienced divers who are willing to show you how to first. Why pay for milk if you have a cow? However don't try and milk the bull.

There is nothing wrong with taking a rebeather course on another unit, as most rebreathers have fundamental skills so as long as you realize that it is not your unit then every bit of training "experience" helps.

It sounds like you built your unit and should have a sound idea on the concepts of gas flow, etc...so with that in mind you can take concepts and apply them to your design.

Most people only pay for things like training if there is a need (desire for information), or a requirment for carrying a piece of plastic so they can dive on this boat or that...do you really need the plastic or more concerned about safe use?

Rebreathers are fun if they don't kill you, so enjoy and keep us posted on your progress.

lizardland · 21st November 2005, 12:42

Just out of interest, does anyone know if Gordon had a Rebreather cert when he started diving the KISS?

cameron · 21st November 2005, 12:52

Gordon actually machined and designed the valve. He didn't just buy a ready made KISS valve and put it on a collection of parts.

decoweenie · 21st November 2005, 13:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

Just out of interest, does anyone know if Gordon had a Rebreather cert when he started diving the KISS?

I know where you are going Stuart, but the main difference as I see it is...

Gordon designed a Rebreather that actually works...

19th November 2005, 19:36	#11 (permalink)
ccscuba New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: England Posts: 73	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Seems to me if you know how to build it why do a course? You already know how to dive, don't you? A lot of the unit specific course content is only about how the unit works and so not relevant to you. The rest of the stuff is just drills that you can practice anytime - I do some on most dives (mind you, they're mostly for real since I have an Ouroboros....). You already know what all these are, and what the likley problems are going to be, or you wouldn't have been able to build it in the first place. The only issue you'll have without a ticket is if you want to dive in the US, where they frequently check these things, or possibly your life-insurance.
(Offline)

19th November 2005, 20:07	#12 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 532	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Quote: (Originally Posted by ccscuba) The only issue you'll have without a ticket is if you want to dive in the US, where they frequently check these things, or possibly your life-insurance. Surely all you need to do is have a card issued by someone approved by the manufacturer? You are the manufacturer...... __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
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19th November 2005, 20:46	#13 (permalink)
cameron Classic Kiss 124 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 252	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Give me a break, it's an orifice with a bypass button, a monkey could use one. Well I think that is a very simplistic veiw on the KISS valve. Getting your head around the actual physics is important and is not always aparent, unless you deal with gas through and orifice or hydraulics on a regular basis. For example there was a "chocked" article around here somewhere. Going into the trainning with a good understanding of the mechanics will give him a leg up to ask the more intricate questions. Once you know everything behind the operation and setup of the KISS valve, it is pretty easy to dive, But off the bat there are certainly questions that an instructor can help with...
(Offline)

19th November 2005, 20:49	#14 (permalink)
cameron Classic Kiss 124 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 252	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Seems to me if you know how to build it why do a course? You already know how to dive, don't you? A lot of the unit specific course content is only about how the unit works and so not relevant to you. The rest of the stuff is just drills that you can practice anytime Especially for a homebuilder any and all knowledge is important. All rebreather information is relevant to you regardless of what unit you dive...
(Offline)

19th November 2005, 22:05	#15 (permalink)
abowie Fighting Girl Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Land of Oz Posts: 574	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Quote: (Originally Posted by zepp) What you say, i agree, no-one can teach better than yourself. I have mine built 85% and just use it in a pool in o2 mode as I have to add some ppo2 monitors. i will then venture into the depths of ohhhhhhhhhh 300centeMETRES or so to learn how the bouyency characteristics are. I disagree entirely. When Harry and I started doing accelerated deco with high PO2 nitrox there was no one in SA that we could find to teach us (or indeed to ask questions of) so we did a bit of reading and just made it up as we went along, blending and all. While we didn't come to any harm, and it did work, when we finally did some proper tech diving courses they were a revelation. While what we were doing worked we were doing a lot of it in less than perfect ways, some of them just plain dumb. Any activity in life, whether it be diving or not, needs to be taught. And having been both a student and a teacher, I can tell you that some people are more difficult to teach than others What a course will teach you is a whole lot of useful tricks specifically tailored to the unit you're diving. Some of them you will have thought of. Some of them you will not. Some of them might just save your life. Reinventing the wheel is just stupid. Why would you bother? __________________ Andrew Bowie Rebreather-friendly Buddy
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20th November 2005, 05:02	#16 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Quote: (Originally Posted by ccscuba) ...drills that you can practice anytime - I do some on most dives (mind you, they're mostly for real since I have an Ouroboros... Care to expand on that ? We just don't hear too much about the Boris here as far as performance and reliability issues, so I am curious... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

20th November 2005, 06:02	#17 (permalink)
Deep Thought Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Great Lakes Posts: 190	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Quote: (Originally Posted by Simon A) Ok here goes the story. I have a home built rebreather and obviously I cant get training on it! The unit is Inspiration lungs with a draeger DSV, an EDO4 scrubber and a KISS valve. I'm quite happy that I know my way round the 'breather, but what's the best way to gain the skills? I have dived it and know it works, currently to a max depth of 7.5m (thanks Stuart) and I now need to get some more time on it, nail the comedy bouyancy aspect and then work it up to about 40m. I'm confident that I can dive the unit without killing myself, but I feel that I'd nail the bouyancy and drills aspect of it faster/more reliably if I could get some (formal or informal) training and feedback. The question is what path to take? It would be fairly easy to borrow an Inspiration or a KISS and do a course. Is this a good idea? or am I better off finding a friendly KISS and Inspiration qualified instructor and taking an extended skills development session informaly? Should I just find an "experienced" rebreather diver who will "mentor" me? (if so how do I measure/define how much "experience" is required?) or do I just go ahead and teach myself? (This could be a long process). Or is there a mixture of the lot that may suit me better? Hoping for help Simon A Simon If you are confident that you can dive the unit without killing yourself, then get out and dive the unit in controlled environments until you learn the buoyancy and drills aspects. You sound sure, but unsure about seeking a mentor. Some divers are better than instructors and some instructors are better than divers so it really boils down to whether you have acess to experienced divers who are willing to show you how to first. Why pay for milk if you have a cow? However don't try and milk the bull. There is nothing wrong with taking a rebeather course on another unit, as most rebreathers have fundamental skills so as long as you realize that it is not your unit then every bit of training "experience" helps. It sounds like you built your unit and should have a sound idea on the concepts of gas flow, etc...so with that in mind you can take concepts and apply them to your design. Most people only pay for things like training if there is a need (desire for information), or a requirment for carrying a piece of plastic so they can dive on this boat or that...do you really need the plastic or more concerned about safe use? Rebreathers are fun if they don't kill you, so enjoy and keep us posted on your progress. __________________ Creature Of Habits; Mostly Bad www.gudcscuba.com
(Offline)

21st November 2005, 12:42	#18 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,303	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Just out of interest, does anyone know if Gordon had a Rebreather cert when he started diving the KISS? __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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21st November 2005, 12:52	#19 (permalink)
cameron Classic Kiss 124 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 252	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Gordon actually machined and designed the valve. He didn't just buy a ready made KISS valve and put it on a collection of parts.
(Offline)

21st November 2005, 13:33	#20 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: No training available, what do I do now? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) Just out of interest, does anyone know if Gordon had a Rebreather cert when he started diving the KISS? I know where you are going Stuart, but the main difference as I see it is... Gordon designed a Rebreather that actually works... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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