CCR TriMix Course Contents

jkaterenchuk · 5th July 2008, 13:43

A couple of recent threads;

Reading Material for Mixed Gas CCR
Which Bailout Gas?

and the fact that I believe in the "you don't know what you don't know" theory has prompted me to raise the following questions for the members whom are already Trimix certified.

Based upon your after training diving experiences what are the specific items that are most important to understand and ensure are fully covered during a ccr trimix class?

and

What questions should be posed to the instructor to stimulate constructive conversation and learning in areas that might not be fully covered during the time constraints of the course?

Just so you have a little background. I will be taking my CCR Trimix course in October with dives planned up to 100M. I will be doing the course over a several week period of time rather than a 5 day block. There will be alot of travel and off course time with the instructor so I want to have many questions prepared to fully utilize this time for additional learning. I have also been doing my own reading of manuals and forum posting so that I am prepared. I have not been OC Trimix certified and I have a technical background so I prefer to ask, think about the answer, research it, clarify my understanding and then apply it if I agree.

I have already reviewed the course descriptions and instructor standards from several agencies so thats not what I am looking for here. A couple of the items raised by Abbo in his thread on Which Bailout Gas is more in line with the type of guidance I am seeking.

Thanks, John

Skipbreather · 5th July 2008, 14:30

I’d come at this one w/ a slightly different tack. If I understand what you’re asking, you will have a lot to travel time to kill in the company of your instructor. In today’s fast paced world that will be a genuine asset.

In the early days of aviation there was a grand tradition called “hangar flying” where knowledge, experience, and skills were informally shared between pilots who’d managed to survive and the younguns’. Countless stories often starting with those immortal words “There I was….” would get told while a group of pilots would be just sitting around an airport, often waiting out bad weather. Many a young aviator owed his life to having some tidbit, picked up hangar flying, in his personal bag of tricks.

Any instructor worth his salt will cover the syllabus provided by his agency. Your job is to learn more than that minimum. My suggestion would be to put the travel time to use by asking him to tell ”there I was” type stories about problems he’s encountered while deep (equipment, gasses, weather, technique, whatever) and how he dealt with them. I suspect you’ll find answers to questions you never knew you had.

Enjoy your course!

tecdivertraining · 6th July 2008, 00:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

A couple of recent threads;

Reading Material for Mixed Gas CCR
Which Bailout Gas?

and the fact that I believe in the "you don't know what you don't know" theory has prompted me to raise the following questions for the members whom are already Trimix certified.

Based upon your after training diving experiences what are the specific items that are most important to understand and ensure are fully covered during a ccr trimix class?

and

What questions should be posed to the instructor to stimulate constructive conversation and learning in areas that might not be fully covered during the time constraints of the course?

Just so you have a little background. I will be taking my CCR Trimix course in October with dives planned up to 100M. I will be doing the course over a several week period of time rather than a 5 day block. There will be alot of travel and off course time with the instructor so I want to have many questions prepared to fully utilize this time for additional learning. I have also been doing my own reading of manuals and forum posting so that I am prepared. I have not been OC Trimix certified and I have a technical background so I prefer to ask, think about the answer, research it, clarify my understanding and then apply it if I agree.

I have already reviewed the course descriptions and instructor standards from several agencies so thats not what I am looking for here. A couple of the items raised by Abbo in his thread on Which Bailout Gas is more in line with the type of guidance I am seeking.

Thanks, John

Hi John,

As you have not done a OC mix course before are you doing normoxic or full trimix?

the clear difference for me here is a normoxic course should be heavy on the skills as you can get down and dirty in shallow water helping build a high skill level/survival should the Sh1t hit the fan. The 4-6 dives to 100m on a trimix course you should stick pretty much to the plans as following full bailout schedules, SCR ascents, no gauges blind ascents etc posses to much risk. I would then like to cover a lot of expedition style academics and advanced planning in full mix.

All courses should begin with a course schedule being presented and this should include what's going to be covered and should go way beyond agency mins as they are simply not in-depth enough. Get your hands on it way in advance then you can best prepair for healthy chats with your instructor and maximize your time together.

Looking forward to meeting you in PI in October.

jkaterenchuk · 6th July 2008, 03:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

Hi John,

As you have not done a OC mix course before are you doing normoxic or full trimix?

the clear difference for me here is a normoxic course should be heavy on the skills as you can get down and dirty in shallow water helping build a high skill level/survival should the Sh1t hit the fan. The 4-6 dives to 100m on a trimix course you should stick pretty much to the plans as following full bailout schedules, SCR ascents, no gauges blind ascents etc posses to much risk. I would then like to cover a lot of expedition style academics and advanced planning in full mix.

All courses should begin with a course schedule being presented and this should include what's going to be covered and should go way beyond agency mins as they are simply not in-depth enough. Get your hands on it way in advance then you can best prepair for healthy chats with your instructor and maximize your time together.

Looking forward to meeting you in PI in October.

Matt

Thanks for the input. It will be full trimix. I have been following the ANDI course path and the TRD course (which is the requred prereq and I have already taken) is heavy on the skills but does not introduce trimix. It is Air Dil, 50M max with 30 minutes deco. The course I will be taking is the Level 5 ANDI course (10 dives total) and as it was explained to me is as you suggested and meant to build experience not drills and skills. It also includes the expedition academics.

John

chunter · 6th July 2008, 05:07

Off the top of my head, the items that I have found to be most useful are the following:

- Open circuit bailout gas planning. (Knowing your RMV, which gasses, how much to bring, which schedules to follow).

- Equipment configuration. (offboard trimix? onboard trimix? what size stage bottles? What bottom mix to use? basics of stage bottle configuration and labeling.)

- Flying without electronics (semi-closed operation detailing which gasses can be plumbed into the loop and what the inspired oxygen levels will be for each of those gasses using either a 1 to 3 or 1 to 5 ratio, which tables to follow or how to set your remaining computer in this scenario, oxygen flushing at 20 feet so that decompression can certainly be finished using unit as oxgen rebreather). BTW, a good knowledge of SC operation and O2 rebreather training is essential for "exploration" type diving. Some instructors will push for the "always have enough OC bailout" mantra, but my feeling is that this adds a huge level of comfort in an otherwise stressful situation.

- Death case studies. (In depth analysis of what divers did, what they could have done differently, and the failures that contributed).

- Technique - largely general buoyancy skills coupled with task loading drills.

- Extra reading - an instructor should have a long list of papers and articles for the student to read.

That's all for now. Gotta eat.

Aloha,
Charlie

***jradomski*** · 6th July 2008, 21:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

Matt

Thanks for the input. It will be full trimix. I have been following the ANDI course path and the TSD course (which is the requred prereq and I have already taken) is heavy on the skills but does not introduce trimix. It is Air Dil, 60M max with 30 minutes deco. The course I will be taking is the Level 5 ANDI course (10 dives total) and as it was explained to me is as you suggested and meant to build experience not drills and skills. It also includes the expedition academics.

John

to make clear for others the pre-requiste is TRD not TSD, Which is the class you took that was very heavy on survival skills (50m max not 60m).. TSD is the prequisite for TRD or can be taken in conjunction with TRD.

jkaterenchuk · 6th July 2008, 22:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

to make clear for others the pre-requiste is TRD not TSD, Which is the class you took that was very heavy on survival skills (50m max not 60m).. TSD is the prequisite for TRD or can be taken in conjunction with TRD.

Thanks for the correction Joe...guess I need to proof read better in the future.

John

Mark Chase · 7th July 2008, 07:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

A couple of recent threads;

Reading Material for Mixed Gas CCR
Which Bailout Gas?

and the fact that I believe in the "you don't know what you don't know" theory has prompted me to raise the following questions for the members whom are already Trimix certified.

Based upon your after training diving experiences what are the specific items that are most important to understand and ensure are fully covered during a ccr trimix class?

and

What questions should be posed to the instructor to stimulate constructive conversation and learning in areas that might not be fully covered during the time constraints of the course?

Just so you have a little background. I will be taking my CCR Trimix course in October with dives planned up to 100M. I will be doing the course over a several week period of time rather than a 5 day block. There will be alot of travel and off course time with the instructor so I want to have many questions prepared to fully utilize this time for additional learning. I have also been doing my own reading of manuals and forum posting so that I am prepared. I have not been OC Trimix certified and I have a technical background so I prefer to ask, think about the answer, research it, clarify my understanding and then apply it if I agree.

I have already reviewed the course descriptions and instructor standards from several agencies so thats not what I am looking for here. A couple of the items raised by Abbo in his thread on Which Bailout Gas is more in line with the type of guidance I am seeking.

Thanks, John

If your OC mix already its all about bailout. If your not OC mix already its about Trimix, bailout and possibly stage management.

The topics of "which gas" and "how much" remain very much a personal choice but no doubt the instructor will have his own view that he/she will pass on. Remember its only a view he/she is not God and Id still take a long hard personal look at it. What they may be capable of might not be possible for a w/end diver.

Have a go at LONG periods on SCR. Not the 10min drill they do to show you how it works. Try it for over an hour and see how you feel.

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 7th July 2008, 09:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Have a go at LONG periods on SCR. Not the 10min drill they do to show you how it works. Try it for over an hour and see how you feel.

ATB

Mark

Been there... I have used it for over 2 hours on one occasion, no big deal... In ANDI's TRD class we do it for about 30 minutes, so it gives a reasonable feel for the technique...

Once you get the rythm down its not all that difficult..

Mark Chase · 7th July 2008, 10:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Been there... I have used it for over 2 hours on one occasion, no big deal... In ANDI's TRD class we do it for about 30 minutes, so it gives a reasonable feel for the technique...

Once you get the rythm down its not all that difficult..

See my note:

What they may be capable of might not be possible for a w/end diver.

I attempted a SCR bailout with 90mins deco. I ended up with a masive headach, chest pains and a very sore nose.

I kind of ruled out SCR on an inspo as a serious alternative to adiquate OC gas after that experimnet. I hear the ADV on the Meg is easier to work with. The KISS definitly isnt.

On the other hand he may breeze it. My point is a 10min go at things like running the unit blind and SCR doset realy stack up to a full on deco exit with it.

ATB

Mark

5th July 2008, 13:43	#1 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 827	CCR TriMix Course Contents A couple of recent threads; Reading Material for Mixed Gas CCR Which Bailout Gas? and the fact that I believe in the "you don't know what you don't know" theory has prompted me to raise the following questions for the members whom are already Trimix certified. Based upon your after training diving experiences what are the specific items that are most important to understand and ensure are fully covered during a ccr trimix class? and What questions should be posed to the instructor to stimulate constructive conversation and learning in areas that might not be fully covered during the time constraints of the course? Just so you have a little background. I will be taking my CCR Trimix course in October with dives planned up to 100M. I will be doing the course over a several week period of time rather than a 5 day block. There will be alot of travel and off course time with the instructor so I want to have many questions prepared to fully utilize this time for additional learning. I have also been doing my own reading of manuals and forum posting so that I am prepared. I have not been OC Trimix certified and I have a technical background so I prefer to ask, think about the answer, research it, clarify my understanding and then apply it if I agree. I have already reviewed the course descriptions and instructor standards from several agencies so thats not what I am looking for here. A couple of the items raised by Abbo in his thread on Which Bailout Gas is more in line with the type of guidance I am seeking. Thanks, John
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5th July 2008, 14:30	#2 (permalink)
Skipbreather Reads the fine print Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA Posts: 557	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents I’d come at this one w/ a slightly different tack. If I understand what you’re asking, you will have a lot to travel time to kill in the company of your instructor. In today’s fast paced world that will be a genuine asset. In the early days of aviation there was a grand tradition called “hangar flying” where knowledge, experience, and skills were informally shared between pilots who’d managed to survive and the younguns’. Countless stories often starting with those immortal words “There I was….” would get told while a group of pilots would be just sitting around an airport, often waiting out bad weather. Many a young aviator owed his life to having some tidbit, picked up hangar flying, in his personal bag of tricks. Any instructor worth his salt will cover the syllabus provided by his agency. Your job is to learn more than that minimum. My suggestion would be to put the travel time to use by asking him to tell ”there I was” type stories about problems he’s encountered while deep (equipment, gasses, weather, technique, whatever) and how he dealt with them. I suspect you’ll find answers to questions you never knew you had. Enjoy your course! __________________ "Entropy RULES! Enjoy the interim."
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6th July 2008, 00:35	#3 (permalink)
tecdivertraining RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 462	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) A couple of recent threads; Reading Material for Mixed Gas CCR Which Bailout Gas? and the fact that I believe in the "you don't know what you don't know" theory has prompted me to raise the following questions for the members whom are already Trimix certified. Based upon your after training diving experiences what are the specific items that are most important to understand and ensure are fully covered during a ccr trimix class? and What questions should be posed to the instructor to stimulate constructive conversation and learning in areas that might not be fully covered during the time constraints of the course? Just so you have a little background. I will be taking my CCR Trimix course in October with dives planned up to 100M. I will be doing the course over a several week period of time rather than a 5 day block. There will be alot of travel and off course time with the instructor so I want to have many questions prepared to fully utilize this time for additional learning. I have also been doing my own reading of manuals and forum posting so that I am prepared. I have not been OC Trimix certified and I have a technical background so I prefer to ask, think about the answer, research it, clarify my understanding and then apply it if I agree. I have already reviewed the course descriptions and instructor standards from several agencies so thats not what I am looking for here. A couple of the items raised by Abbo in his thread on Which Bailout Gas is more in line with the type of guidance I am seeking. Thanks, John Hi John, As you have not done a OC mix course before are you doing normoxic or full trimix? the clear difference for me here is a normoxic course should be heavy on the skills as you can get down and dirty in shallow water helping build a high skill level/survival should the Sh1t hit the fan. The 4-6 dives to 100m on a trimix course you should stick pretty much to the plans as following full bailout schedules, SCR ascents, no gauges blind ascents etc posses to much risk. I would then like to cover a lot of expedition style academics and advanced planning in full mix. All courses should begin with a course schedule being presented and this should include what's going to be covered and should go way beyond agency mins as they are simply not in-depth enough. Get your hands on it way in advance then you can best prepair for healthy chats with your instructor and maximize your time together. Looking forward to meeting you in PI in October. __________________ Mathew Partridge Technical Director Pro-Tech Dive College www.protechdivers.com www.tech-ccr.com Last edited by tecdivertraining : 6th July 2008 at 00:42.
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6th July 2008, 03:59	#4 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 827	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) Hi John, As you have not done a OC mix course before are you doing normoxic or full trimix? the clear difference for me here is a normoxic course should be heavy on the skills as you can get down and dirty in shallow water helping build a high skill level/survival should the Sh1t hit the fan. The 4-6 dives to 100m on a trimix course you should stick pretty much to the plans as following full bailout schedules, SCR ascents, no gauges blind ascents etc posses to much risk. I would then like to cover a lot of expedition style academics and advanced planning in full mix. All courses should begin with a course schedule being presented and this should include what's going to be covered and should go way beyond agency mins as they are simply not in-depth enough. Get your hands on it way in advance then you can best prepair for healthy chats with your instructor and maximize your time together. Looking forward to meeting you in PI in October. Matt Thanks for the input. It will be full trimix. I have been following the ANDI course path and the TRD course (which is the requred prereq and I have already taken) is heavy on the skills but does not introduce trimix. It is Air Dil, 50M max with 30 minutes deco. The course I will be taking is the Level 5 ANDI course (10 dives total) and as it was explained to me is as you suggested and meant to build experience not drills and skills. It also includes the expedition academics. John Last edited by jkaterenchuk : 6th July 2008 at 22:55. Reason: correct errors in course and depth
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6th July 2008, 05:07	#5 (permalink)
chunter I like diving Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Classic Kiss Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Honolulu Posts: 478	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents Off the top of my head, the items that I have found to be most useful are the following: - Open circuit bailout gas planning. (Knowing your RMV, which gasses, how much to bring, which schedules to follow). - Equipment configuration. (offboard trimix? onboard trimix? what size stage bottles? What bottom mix to use? basics of stage bottle configuration and labeling.) - Flying without electronics (semi-closed operation detailing which gasses can be plumbed into the loop and what the inspired oxygen levels will be for each of those gasses using either a 1 to 3 or 1 to 5 ratio, which tables to follow or how to set your remaining computer in this scenario, oxygen flushing at 20 feet so that decompression can certainly be finished using unit as oxgen rebreather). BTW, a good knowledge of SC operation and O2 rebreather training is essential for "exploration" type diving. Some instructors will push for the "always have enough OC bailout" mantra, but my feeling is that this adds a huge level of comfort in an otherwise stressful situation. - Death case studies. (In depth analysis of what divers did, what they could have done differently, and the failures that contributed). - Technique - largely general buoyancy skills coupled with task loading drills. - Extra reading - an instructor should have a long list of papers and articles for the student to read. That's all for now. Gotta eat. Aloha, Charlie __________________ "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Emerson "Hobgoblin is a cool word." - Charlie
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6th July 2008, 21:28	#6 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,007	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) Matt Thanks for the input. It will be full trimix. I have been following the ANDI course path and the TSD course (which is the requred prereq and I have already taken) is heavy on the skills but does not introduce trimix. It is Air Dil, 60M max with 30 minutes deco. The course I will be taking is the Level 5 ANDI course (10 dives total) and as it was explained to me is as you suggested and meant to build experience not drills and skills. It also includes the expedition academics. John to make clear for others the pre-requiste is TRD not TSD, Which is the class you took that was very heavy on survival skills (50m max not 60m).. TSD is the prequisite for TRD or can be taken in conjunction with TRD. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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6th July 2008, 22:54	#7 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 827	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) to make clear for others the pre-requiste is TRD not TSD, Which is the class you took that was very heavy on survival skills (50m max not 60m).. TSD is the prequisite for TRD or can be taken in conjunction with TRD. Thanks for the correction Joe...guess I need to proof read better in the future. John
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7th July 2008, 07:10	#8 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) A couple of recent threads; Reading Material for Mixed Gas CCR Which Bailout Gas? and the fact that I believe in the "you don't know what you don't know" theory has prompted me to raise the following questions for the members whom are already Trimix certified. Based upon your after training diving experiences what are the specific items that are most important to understand and ensure are fully covered during a ccr trimix class? and What questions should be posed to the instructor to stimulate constructive conversation and learning in areas that might not be fully covered during the time constraints of the course? Just so you have a little background. I will be taking my CCR Trimix course in October with dives planned up to 100M. I will be doing the course over a several week period of time rather than a 5 day block. There will be alot of travel and off course time with the instructor so I want to have many questions prepared to fully utilize this time for additional learning. I have also been doing my own reading of manuals and forum posting so that I am prepared. I have not been OC Trimix certified and I have a technical background so I prefer to ask, think about the answer, research it, clarify my understanding and then apply it if I agree. I have already reviewed the course descriptions and instructor standards from several agencies so thats not what I am looking for here. A couple of the items raised by Abbo in his thread on Which Bailout Gas is more in line with the type of guidance I am seeking. Thanks, John If your OC mix already its all about bailout. If your not OC mix already its about Trimix, bailout and possibly stage management. The topics of "which gas" and "how much" remain very much a personal choice but no doubt the instructor will have his own view that he/she will pass on. Remember its only a view he/she is not God and Id still take a long hard personal look at it. What they may be capable of might not be possible for a w/end diver. Have a go at LONG periods on SCR. Not the 10min drill they do to show you how it works. Try it for over an hour and see how you feel. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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7th July 2008, 09:55	#9 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,007	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Have a go at LONG periods on SCR. Not the 10min drill they do to show you how it works. Try it for over an hour and see how you feel. ATB Mark Been there... I have used it for over 2 hours on one occasion, no big deal... In ANDI's TRD class we do it for about 30 minutes, so it gives a reasonable feel for the technique... Once you get the rythm down its not all that difficult.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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7th July 2008, 10:02	#10 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: CCR TriMix Course Contents Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Been there... I have used it for over 2 hours on one occasion, no big deal... In ANDI's TRD class we do it for about 30 minutes, so it gives a reasonable feel for the technique... Once you get the rythm down its not all that difficult.. See my note: What they may be capable of might not be possible for a w/end diver. I attempted a SCR bailout with 90mins deco. I ended up with a masive headach, chest pains and a very sore nose. I kind of ruled out SCR on an inspo as a serious alternative to adiquate OC gas after that experimnet. I hear the ADV on the Meg is easier to work with. The KISS definitly isnt. On the other hand he may breeze it. My point is a 10min go at things like running the unit blind and SCR doset realy stack up to a full on deco exit with it. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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