Certification madness or reasonable requirements?

MarcLaukien

I recently contacted Cobalt Coast Dive Resort because I was interested in going to their Innerspace 2008 event. I was especially interested in diving my new Hammerhead CCR in the 200' range (Normoxic Trimix).

Unfortunately, this turned out to be more difficult than I thought.

As background, I'm certified by TDI for Normoxic Trimix for Open Circuit, and I hold an O2ptima Rebreather Diver certification from IANTD, as well as a Hammerhead CCR Rebreather Diver Level 2 certification from ANDI. (I'm also full cave certified, as well as all kinds of PADI certifications, but this is not relevant for this discussion.)

I have about 70 hours on the O2ptima, but only about 20 or so on the Hammerhead CCR (since I don't have it for very long).

I asked Cobalt whether I would be allowed to dive with Trimix with my Hammerhead CCR.

The first response was that this would be ok, provided that I have at least 50 hours logged on my Hammerhead CCR, and that I would do a shortened version of the CCR Trimix course, namely one confined water skills dive, 1/2 day of class, and two dives with a minimum of 150 minutes dive time.

Personally, I thought this would be a bit of an overkill, given that gas laws don't change simply because I'm diving a CCR now. The only difference is really the bailout procedures, which in my opinion doesn't need that much course work. Besides, I was diving Trimix on CCR before anyway, so I know the rules, I just don't have any special CCR Trimix card.

Nevertheless I agreed, since it can never hurt to brush up your skills, and the course length wasn't excessive.

However, I then explained that I have only about 20 hours on my Hammerhead CCR, since it's new, but that I already have about 70 hours on my O2ptima. I further explained that the emergency procedures between the two are essentially the same.

Furthermore, there was a miscommunication, i.e., Cobalt thought I would be full Trimix certified, but I'm only Normoxic Trimix certified (on Open Circuit).

With this information, Cobalt told me that I would first have to get 50 hours on the HH before I could do any Trimix diving (regardless of the number of hours I logged on the O2ptima before), and furthermore, that I would have to do a full one-week Normoxic Trimix CCR course.

Personally, I believe this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How many certifications will dive resorts require? Every time I change the rebreather I need a new cert not only for the basics, but also for Trimix? Every time I change the rebreather, my logged hours are reset to zero? Everything I learned about gas laws in my prior Open Circuit Trimix course is now different somehow?

What is your opinion regarding this? Are these reasonable requirements, or is it certification madness? I believe it is the latter, and that we as a Rebreather community should try to convince training agencies or dive resorts to revise their rules.

In closing, please let me point out that I don't want to bash Cobalt or any other dive resort or agency in particular. On the contrary, the Cobalt staff was very friendly and responsive. However, I think an open discussion about this issue is necessary, which should ultimately benefit both the divers and the resorts or training agencies.

jkaterenchuk

I feel your pain. I suspect instructors, resorts and agencies do not want to risk the legal consequences of allowing you to do something that does not show a specific demonstrated skill set that does not have holes in it that other lawyers can use as leverage for claiming negligence.

I know some agencies will provide some credit for hours on another unit for some courses.

Frankly, I have a mixed opinion on the reasonableness of the requirements. Some I see as making sense and others I find hard to understand particularily when I try to sift thru the agency websites to understand the flow and skill development of the CCR courses they offer. Often they appear as just a patch job instead of a well thought out and value added course flow that integrates with all other courses.

John

Andy Del

I think this does indicate over-kill. Gas laws, diving practices and also CCRs are constant and/or similar enough that one dose of jumping through the hoops should suffice for the thinking diver with regards to mixed gas training.

The major differences are going the 'niggle' points in individual rebreathers. the most obvious is clockwise / counterclockwise loops. Not being fully assimilated on a new unit's differences here has cost at least one diver his life. Ditto for unit setups and checking.

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MarcLaukien

Right, I agree with that. But then again, the Optima and HH are very similar in this respect. Both have the same electronics, both have OTS CLs, both have the Dil/O2/ADV in the same location, both have the same direction of gas flow, etc. The main difference is the setup, but this was already covered extensively in my basic HH CCR training in February.

There is really no reason why my logged hours should now reset to zero, or why I should have to do a full Normoxic CCR course given that I already did many Normoxic Trimix OC dives (and Normoxic Trimix CCR dives as well, without any cert card). I would be ok with doing a simple cross over training (it's always a good idea to brush up your skills), but to redo everything doesn't make any sense IMO.

What's next, a requirement that I have to redo my cave training because I switched to CCR? And then do it again because I switched from one rebreather to a different (but similar) one?

diverklondike

The request is a very reasonable one... I would suggest that those people who do have OC trimix should plan to get a CCR trimix card.

Here is the reasoning....

1) Initial CCR training is unit specific.... Mod 1 in most cases...

2) Advance CCR certs like trimix and cave are non unit specific.

3) Even if you are OC Trimix, a CCR trimix card is becoming more and more of a requirement by shops and resorts. There are enough difference and the fact that training orgs have created it that people are asking to see them. You can debate all you want about it but there are places that will not let you dive certian dives with out it.

4) Funny that you should mentioned Cave. There are definate difference between OC cave and CCR cave skills. So yes I can see a shop or someone running a trip that may ask you to show a cave ccr card given the right situation.

5) I do agree that the whole number of hours thing between the optima and HH are a bit flakey of a stance for them to take...

Complain as we may like about what the difference are, resorts and boats are asking for this stuff as we speak. My 2 cents is that it's between the instructor and the student based on the training agency guidelines to determine what needs to be done to earn a cross over if you already have the OC flavor of a given certification.

M

MarcLaukien

As I wrote, I think a short crossover course would be ok, and I was willing to sign up for this. However, a full one-week course is definitely an overkill. Furthermore, the requirement to start over collecting hours if you switch from one rebreather to a similar one doesn't make any sense.

As for cave diving, there is no difference between OC and CCR cave diving other than gas management/bailout. A short cross over with a bit of theory and one dive or so would be ok, but I would definitely not want do a full cave class again. Thankfully, places such as Ginnies and others are more reasonable in this respect and don't ask for a special Cave CCR certification card.

Somehow there is the perception that without all these specialized OC to CCR cross-over classes, there would be more accidents. However, to the best of my knowledge, there is no data to back up such an assertion. Looking at all the recent accidents, I don't think there is any one that was caused by a diver only being trained for a diving specialty on OC instead of re-doing this specialty with CCR.

jkaterenchuk

Mark

I believe some of the agencies issue advanced certs that are unit specific.

For example my ANDI Level 3 Inspiration Cert Card says:

Equipment Inspiration
May use all.......using the rebreather system specified.

I also have a seperate ANDI Level 3 Kiss Cert Card that says:

Equipment Jetsam Kiss
May use all......using the rebreather system specified.

My understanding is that when I take my CCR Level 5 it would also be unit specific.

I am not sure about TDI and IANTD card and cert regarding specific units being indicated on the card or not. Maybe someone else can shed some light in that area.

My ANDI Cave Cert card which I did on CCR says nothing about a rebreather. However, it does say maximum of 30 minutes required deco stop time using 3 cylinders and 3 gases within a cave enviroment. I suspect that would make things alittle problematic for the resort checking my card. As I could be carrying 4 tanks....dil, o2, bo and deco. Ditto on my ANDI Technical Wreck card.

One problem is up to this point I did not know what the card would say until it was received. I have grown wiser.

John

diverklondike

Interesting... I would ask Joe R about it... I had a similar conversation with an IANTD instructor about this and my understanding was the opposite for the TRIMIX etc...

M

jradomski

ANDI Level 3 and Level 5 CCR classes are not unit specific (although a unit is listed).. once the diver logs a specific amount of time (and provides proof) on the new rebreather they can request a card indicating the new rebreather..

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All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

human

I also think that it is overkill to repeat a full course for OC/CC. I can see a modified crossover course. Hopefully, you can find a instructor that can accommodate you. As you have pointed out, there will be places, that require a specific card for everything. I seem to see it the worse, at places that are rec or rec/tech orientated. I have been on OC rec dive vacations or a non dive vacations, that I wanted to get a dip in and had to show a card to get nitrox, but I have never had to show my trimix card in cave county for mix fills or O2. Kinda rambling but goes along with the thought process of cards.......

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