Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training

chunter · 21st March 2008, 21:27

Why don't you just put them on Dragers and tell them to run around the room for a while?

Sutty · 21st March 2008, 23:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Hi Sutty, good post. RAF Chamber?

What the med guys at the military chamber here teach us is that you never loose a symptom from episode to episode, but may add new ones. If you had a visual disturbance the first time you ought to keep that symptom for life, but might notice new ones in addition to the first one later.

Dave

.

Yes chamber at Cranfield, done as part of an aeromedical transport course. An interesting experience all round, and a good course. Most people seem to have euphoria as a major symptom of hypoxia, I didn't get that and felt rather anxious, as if under pressure and being rushed (I was doing simple cognitive function tests at the time). I didn't have the same feeling breathing the Rebreather, but the RB experience would make me very wary if I get dizzy under water for more than a second or two (which occasionally happens when I equalise - presumably alternobaric vertigo). From a diving point of view I'd rather have hypoxia make me anxious (and hopefully looking for why) rather than euphoric!

Sutty · 21st March 2008, 23:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Interestingly enough, my first symptom is the sensation of heat, or bright sunlight, on the back of my head. This and a glare sensation of bright light, which is actually the loss of vision due to retinal hypoxia being perceived as a loss of vision due to bright light. The knowlage learned in the chamber saved my ass once, as you will read here if interested (the hypoxia part is about halfway thru):

Untitled

.

Nice tale, but your awareness sounds like it was from learning rather than a remembered experience of hypoxia.
I used to fly a flex-wing microlight (and have been missing it lately), took it up to 12000' once and stopped at that as I was a bit worried about hypoxia (no symptoms though). Took ages to glide it back down with a 17:1 glide angle

Neil

cool_hardware52 · 22nd March 2008, 00:21

I've been tested, sort of, over and over.

I spent a fair bit of time flying with Dad and family in a Beech Baron often back and forth from California to Colorado in my early youth.

The Breathing O2 in this aircraft was piped to a 4 port distribution manifold to the left of the pilot.

If I was getting too "antsy" Dad would just "pull the plug" on my mask and everybody would enjoy the balance of the flight.

At or above ~14500 MSL and I get sleeply.

The plane was normally aspirated so he couldn't do too much brain damage

Tobin

**Dave Sutton** · 22nd March 2008, 01:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52)

I've been tested, sort of, over and over.

Me too... every time I pull G in a fighter... as the blood slides down to my toes...

. "Pull until you tunnel, and then if you are still losing the fight, pull until you cannot see but can still hear". Works (sort of). Now and then a guy goes limp and if you're in the fight you'll just see the G unload as he passes out, and then in about 10 seconds they come back to the business at hand. Funny thing is that they never remember it. Cost us a Blue Angel last year, BTW.

What I've learned thru probably hundreds of hypoxia experiences is that the rate of entering hypoxia is the determinant factor for recognition. "Fairly" rapid rates are self-detectable. Immediate rates (IE: Breathing nearly inert gas) is only barely detectable due to the short time available. Very slow rates of entry to hypoxia are also VERY difficult to self-detect, as it's like the lights are being turned down VERY slowly.... there's sort of a middle ground where you can detect in time to correct, but boy.... I'd never suggest that anyone try it in the water.

Old charter pilots trick for rowdy passengers.... raise the cabin altitude and serve free drinks. In 10 minutes they'll all be dozing.

Dave

.

mempilot · 22nd March 2008, 01:35

I've done about five rides in various chambers. I was part of a study back in the early 90's as well. I remember feeling 'super', but after watching the video replay and examining my handywork, I realized I was not. At the point just prior to incapacitation, the mask had to be put back on me by a flight nurse. The video showed a point much earlier where cognitive skill and function were gone. This is why I believe it possible for a Rebreather diver to be awake although hypoxic, and unable to perform a successful bailout. The PO2 will continue to drop on the loop, and it may be too late for success. Many people, proven in chamber rides, don't realize the symptoms until it is too late. The defense is to keep the bailout simple. A twist of a BOV knob, or nasal bailout, in my opinion, is much better than the deployment of an offboard regulator. There are too many steps in that procedure to be acceptible in my mind. The will to fight the symptoms early can be deadly in the end.

mempilot · 22nd March 2008, 01:38

BTW Dave, the new ROBS is a great tool. I wonder if Alteon will make them available in the future for our checks?

**Dave Sutton** · 22nd March 2008, 01:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot)

BTW Dave, the new ROBS is a great tool. I wonder if Alteon will make them available in the future for our checks?

Dunno. We use them at FlightSafety, but only as an enrichment course. Yesterday I was out in Albuquerque NM doing some flight test work for Eclipse and they do it with 100% of their training applicants, which I give them a lot of credit for. I think they will become more common but right now they are fairly rare.

Chamber memory: A guy next to me starting to have petit-mal seizures while still talking to the life support tech. The tech was saying "Sir, put on your mask!"... "SIR, put on your mask NOW!!".... "SIR YOU ARE DYING, put on your mask NOW!!". The guy smiled, made eye contact, gave him the "thumbs up" signal, and immediately went unconcious. He was 'responsive' even though he was in the last throes of hypoxia to the bitter end. He had no memory of it, and when he saw himself on the video he nearly shit himself. Scary stuff. Just because your buddy responds with an "OK" signal when you give him one means *nothing*. We so overlearn the "OK" signal that it becomes a low order response to simulus, and DOES NOT mean the responder is OK at all. Think about that.

Dave

mempilot · 22nd March 2008, 02:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Dunno. We use them at FlightSafety, but only as an enrichment course. Yesterday I was out in Albuquerque NM doing some flight test work for Eclipse and they do it with 100% of their training applicants. I think they will become more common but right now they are fairly rare.

Dave

I'll have to stop by the Boeing facility and see what they have cooking when I get back to the Miami base at the end of the month.

When I trained in Berlin at Lufthansa's CSI facility many years ago, they actually pumped smoke substitue into the Level D boxes for the Fire/Smoke in the Cockpit and rapid-deco drills. It's amazing how the heartrate goes up and the performance goes down when you actually have to deal with eye/throat irritation, low visability, and poor mask IC. There is no substitute for realism, is there?

**Dave Sutton** · 22nd March 2008, 02:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot)

When I trained in Berlin at Lufthansa's CSI facility many years ago, they actually pumped smoke substitue into the Level D boxes for the Fire/Smoke in the Cockpit and rapid-deco drills. It's amazing how the heartrate goes up and the performance goes down when you actually have to deal with eye/throat irritation, low visability, and poor mask IC. There is no substitute for realism, is there?

We do that every day here...... the big 'smoke' button is right over my head in the sim. As the circuit breakers ripple in waves as they pop, and the emergency lights come on, and the smoke fills the cockpit... and the rain beats down on the windshield and the flashlight is trained on the magnetic compass, it's sometimes hard to believe that we are safe and sound in a building on the edge of the airport...

Look up EVAS as well. We teach that too.

Dave

.

21st March 2008, 21:27	#11 (permalink)
chunter I like diving Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Classic Kiss Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Honolulu Posts: 484	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training Why don't you just put them on Dragers and tell them to run around the room for a while? __________________ "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Emerson "Hobgoblin is a cool word." - Charlie
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21st March 2008, 23:04	#12 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 835	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Hi Sutty, good post. RAF Chamber? What the med guys at the military chamber here teach us is that you never loose a symptom from episode to episode, but may add new ones. If you had a visual disturbance the first time you ought to keep that symptom for life, but might notice new ones in addition to the first one later. Dave . Yes chamber at Cranfield, done as part of an aeromedical transport course. An interesting experience all round, and a good course. Most people seem to have euphoria as a major symptom of hypoxia, I didn't get that and felt rather anxious, as if under pressure and being rushed (I was doing simple cognitive function tests at the time). I didn't have the same feeling breathing the Rebreather, but the RB experience would make me very wary if I get dizzy under water for more than a second or two (which occasionally happens when I equalise - presumably alternobaric vertigo). From a diving point of view I'd rather have hypoxia make me anxious (and hopefully looking for why) rather than euphoric! __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
(Online)

21st March 2008, 23:42	#13 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 835	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Interestingly enough, my first symptom is the sensation of heat, or bright sunlight, on the back of my head. This and a glare sensation of bright light, which is actually the loss of vision due to retinal hypoxia being perceived as a loss of vision due to bright light. The knowlage learned in the chamber saved my ass once, as you will read here if interested (the hypoxia part is about halfway thru): Untitled . Nice tale, but your awareness sounds like it was from learning rather than a remembered experience of hypoxia. I used to fly a flex-wing microlight (and have been missing it lately), took it up to 12000' once and stopped at that as I was a bit worried about hypoxia (no symptoms though). Took ages to glide it back down with a 17:1 glide angle Neil __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
(Online)

22nd March 2008, 00:21	#14 (permalink)
cool_hardware52 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 399	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training I've been tested, sort of, over and over. I spent a fair bit of time flying with Dad and family in a Beech Baron often back and forth from California to Colorado in my early youth. The Breathing O2 in this aircraft was piped to a 4 port distribution manifold to the left of the pilot. If I was getting too "antsy" Dad would just "pull the plug" on my mask and everybody would enjoy the balance of the flight. At or above ~14500 MSL and I get sleeply. The plane was normally aspirated so he couldn't do too much brain damage Tobin __________________ www.deepseasupply.com
(Online)

22nd March 2008, 01:23	#15 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training Quote: (Originally Posted by cool_hardware52) I've been tested, sort of, over and over. Me too... every time I pull G in a fighter... as the blood slides down to my toes... . "Pull until you tunnel, and then if you are still losing the fight, pull until you cannot see but can still hear". Works (sort of). Now and then a guy goes limp and if you're in the fight you'll just see the G unload as he passes out, and then in about 10 seconds they come back to the business at hand. Funny thing is that they never remember it. Cost us a Blue Angel last year, BTW. What I've learned thru probably hundreds of hypoxia experiences is that the rate of entering hypoxia is the determinant factor for recognition. "Fairly" rapid rates are self-detectable. Immediate rates (IE: Breathing nearly inert gas) is only barely detectable due to the short time available. Very slow rates of entry to hypoxia are also VERY difficult to self-detect, as it's like the lights are being turned down VERY slowly.... there's sort of a middle ground where you can detect in time to correct, but boy.... I'd never suggest that anyone try it in the water. Old charter pilots trick for rowdy passengers.... raise the cabin altitude and serve free drinks. In 10 minutes they'll all be dozing. Dave . __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 22nd March 2008 at 01:26.
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 01:35	#16 (permalink)
mempilot Eric Stadtmueller Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,708	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training I've done about five rides in various chambers. I was part of a study back in the early 90's as well. I remember feeling 'super', but after watching the video replay and examining my handywork, I realized I was not. At the point just prior to incapacitation, the mask had to be put back on me by a flight nurse. The video showed a point much earlier where cognitive skill and function were gone. This is why I believe it possible for a Rebreather diver to be awake although hypoxic, and unable to perform a successful bailout. The PO2 will continue to drop on the loop, and it may be too late for success. Many people, proven in chamber rides, don't realize the symptoms until it is too late. The defense is to keep the bailout simple. A twist of a BOV knob, or nasal bailout, in my opinion, is much better than the deployment of an offboard regulator. There are too many steps in that procedure to be acceptible in my mind. The will to fight the symptoms early can be deadly in the end. __________________ Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 01:38	#17 (permalink)
mempilot Eric Stadtmueller Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,708	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training BTW Dave, the new ROBS is a great tool. I wonder if Alteon will make them available in the future for our checks? __________________ Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 01:44	#18 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot) BTW Dave, the new ROBS is a great tool. I wonder if Alteon will make them available in the future for our checks? Dunno. We use them at FlightSafety, but only as an enrichment course. Yesterday I was out in Albuquerque NM doing some flight test work for Eclipse and they do it with 100% of their training applicants, which I give them a lot of credit for. I think they will become more common but right now they are fairly rare. Chamber memory: A guy next to me starting to have petit-mal seizures while still talking to the life support tech. The tech was saying "Sir, put on your mask!"... "SIR, put on your mask NOW!!".... "SIR YOU ARE DYING, put on your mask NOW!!". The guy smiled, made eye contact, gave him the "thumbs up" signal, and immediately went unconcious. He was 'responsive' even though he was in the last throes of hypoxia to the bitter end. He had no memory of it, and when he saw himself on the video he nearly shit himself. Scary stuff. Just because your buddy responds with an "OK" signal when you give him one means nothing. We so overlearn the "OK" signal that it becomes a low order response to simulus, and DOES NOT mean the responder is OK at all. Think about that. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 22nd March 2008 at 02:05.
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22nd March 2008, 02:03	#19 (permalink)
mempilot Eric Stadtmueller Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,708	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Dunno. We use them at FlightSafety, but only as an enrichment course. Yesterday I was out in Albuquerque NM doing some flight test work for Eclipse and they do it with 100% of their training applicants. I think they will become more common but right now they are fairly rare. Dave I'll have to stop by the Boeing facility and see what they have cooking when I get back to the Miami base at the end of the month. When I trained in Berlin at Lufthansa's CSI facility many years ago, they actually pumped smoke substitue into the Level D boxes for the Fire/Smoke in the Cockpit and rapid-deco drills. It's amazing how the heartrate goes up and the performance goes down when you actually have to deal with eye/throat irritation, low visability, and poor mask IC. There is no substitute for realism, is there? __________________ Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 02:21	#20 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: Reduced Oxygen Breathing System for Training Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot) When I trained in Berlin at Lufthansa's CSI facility many years ago, they actually pumped smoke substitue into the Level D boxes for the Fire/Smoke in the Cockpit and rapid-deco drills. It's amazing how the heartrate goes up and the performance goes down when you actually have to deal with eye/throat irritation, low visability, and poor mask IC. There is no substitute for realism, is there? We do that every day here...... the big 'smoke' button is right over my head in the sim. As the circuit breakers ripple in waves as they pop, and the emergency lights come on, and the smoke fills the cockpit... and the rain beats down on the windshield and the flashlight is trained on the magnetic compass, it's sometimes hard to believe that we are safe and sound in a building on the edge of the airport... Look up EVAS as well. We teach that too. Dave . __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

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