To start here or there....

PeteS · 14th January 2008, 10:25

Scenario:-
A mate wants to go diving. He's never dived before. He WANTS to have a go on an Rebreather.

Options:-
1 Take him out on the Rebreather.
2 Take him out on borrowed OC gear. Borrowed for him, not me, I'll be on CCR!
3 Don't take him.

The Questions:-
What do you think about putting a novice diver on CCR, who has never dived?
Do novice divers HAVE to go through the OC route to get to CCR?
Would it be better to go straight to CCR and never touch OC?
Are there skills that are learned best on OC?
Would the task loading be too high?

I have a whole series of reasons that I could put forward for doing or not doing either route. And liability issues don't form a part of them as this is NZ....... we have ACC for that kind of thing.

I'd be really interested to know what others think.

jhaaja · 14th January 2008, 10:31

Straight to CC I would say. It so much easier to teach "an open mind" that does not have the good old bad habbits from oc diving.

Thats my opinion,

JH

Ben Field · 14th January 2008, 10:43

Take him on OC, then if he floods it he won't FUBAR your cells- also easier for you to monitor his breathing rate/aprehension level, lots of gas available to assist him with buoyancy control (which he won't have so in/out every 5 seconds) less issues if he looses his weightbelt, less fragile if he takes a tumble wearing SCUBA for the first time with fins on.

Of course its difficult to judge how a novice might do on CC straight away as almost all of us did OC first to some extent.

**nigelh** · 14th January 2008, 11:03

People have learnt on CCR from scratch and it's probably the best way to acquire the skills.

However so many people start scuba enthusiastically and then fade away rather quickly so it seems a bit mean to point them at the expensive end before they have had a chance to get over that first bump and realise it's not for them.

***EBT*** · 14th January 2008, 12:00

Personally.... if its just to try, I'd chuck them on oc. Theres a chance they might actually have some spare attention for whats around them then + if you see bubbles you generally know they're ok.

mik · 14th January 2008, 12:11

him on CC, that way when he has problems you can sort them and he gets to dive in a cone of silence (except for the noisy bugger next to him). You, presumably will be doing all the non-intuitive stuff for him anyway so all he has to do is breathe. What is the worst that could happen?

Marvintpa · 14th January 2008, 17:32

Him on OC with a single AL80, and here's why:
-reduced task loading
-less gear
-less clutter, ie. less intimidation
-less to go wrong
-only really have to remember one thing (don't hold your breath)
-easier buoyancy
-a problem like losing the reg is easier to deal with (virtually all contingencies are simpler)
-shorter briefing necessary (since he likely won't be able to do/recall any of it in the water anyway)

Do you remember your first time in the water? *Everything* was new and chances are you likely didn't see much because you were too concerned with what you had to do. My humble suggestion would be to make it as simple and easy for him as possible, and that's still OC.

deepnark · 14th January 2008, 18:37

hi
Put him straight on ccr ,but with oc training done at the same time for bail out purposes. Watch this space in a few years it will be the norm to start on ccr.

ray

**kevin stone** · 15th January 2008, 00:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marvintpa)

Him on OC with a single AL80, and here's why:
-reduced task loading
-less gear
-less clutter, ie. less intimidation
-less to go wrong
-only really have to remember one thing (don't hold your breath)
-easier buoyancy
-a problem like losing the reg is easier to deal with (virtually all contingencies are simpler)
-shorter briefing necessary (since he likely won't be able to do/recall any of it in the water anyway)

Do you remember your first time in the water? *Everything* was new and chances are you likely didn't see much because you were too concerned with what you had to do. My humble suggestion would be to make it as simple and easy for him as possible, and that's still OC.

I agree totally,well put
Kevin

Abbo · 15th January 2008, 03:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

Straight to CC I would say. It so much easier to teach "an open mind" that does not have the good old bad habbits from oc diving.

Thats my opinion,

JH

In the immortal words of John McEnroe "you cannot be serious!"
The skills you lose first in an emergency are those you learned least thoroughly. When you're at the shit/fan interface, bailing out to OC, that's no time for saying to yourself "now, I wonder how this works"! OC's the most basic skill and your life depends on it: surely it should be over-learned first.

`It's the oldest rule in the book,' said the King. `Then it ought to be Number One,' said Alice.

When everything goes tits up, rebreather divers bail to OC; I don't know any OC divers who bail to closed circuit. Ergo, OC is more reliable and simpler. That sounds like what a beginner would want: simple and reliable. In a week when a diver died on a rebreather in a 1.5m-deep swimming pool, honour the dead by learning from them.

14th January 2008, 10:25	#1 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 543	To start here or there.... Scenario:- A mate wants to go diving. He's never dived before. He WANTS to have a go on an Rebreather. Options:- 1 Take him out on the Rebreather. 2 Take him out on borrowed OC gear. Borrowed for him, not me, I'll be on CCR! 3 Don't take him. The Questions:- What do you think about putting a novice diver on CCR, who has never dived? Do novice divers HAVE to go through the OC route to get to CCR? Would it be better to go straight to CCR and never touch OC? Are there skills that are learned best on OC? Would the task loading be too high? I have a whole series of reasons that I could put forward for doing or not doing either route. And liability issues don't form a part of them as this is NZ....... we have ACC for that kind of thing. I'd be really interested to know what others think. __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
(Online)

14th January 2008, 10:31	#2 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 885	Re: To start here or there.... Straight to CC I would say. It so much easier to teach "an open mind" that does not have the good old bad habbits from oc diving. Thats my opinion, JH
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14th January 2008, 10:43	#3 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,775	Re: To start here or there.... Take him on OC, then if he floods it he won't FUBAR your cells- also easier for you to monitor his breathing rate/aprehension level, lots of gas available to assist him with buoyancy control (which he won't have so in/out every 5 seconds) less issues if he looses his weightbelt, less fragile if he takes a tumble wearing SCUBA for the first time with fins on. Of course its difficult to judge how a novice might do on CC straight away as almost all of us did OC first to some extent. __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
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14th January 2008, 11:03	#4 (permalink)
nigelh New member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 883	Re: To start here or there.... People have learnt on CCR from scratch and it's probably the best way to acquire the skills. However so many people start scuba enthusiastically and then fade away rather quickly so it seems a bit mean to point them at the expensive end before they have had a chance to get over that first bump and realise it's not for them. __________________ nigelh
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14th January 2008, 12:00	#5 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,110	Re: To start here or there.... Personally.... if its just to try, I'd chuck them on oc. Theres a chance they might actually have some spare attention for whats around them then + if you see bubbles you generally know they're ok. __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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14th January 2008, 12:11	#6 (permalink)
mik New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney North Posts: 75	Re: To start here or there.... him on CC, that way when he has problems you can sort them and he gets to dive in a cone of silence (except for the noisy bugger next to him). You, presumably will be doing all the non-intuitive stuff for him anyway so all he has to do is breathe. What is the worst that could happen? __________________ It just fell apart in my hands, Chief!
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14th January 2008, 17:32	#7 (permalink)
Marvintpa Bad knees, matching brain Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 284	Re: To start here or there.... Him on OC with a single AL80, and here's why: -reduced task loading -less gear -less clutter, ie. less intimidation -less to go wrong -only really have to remember one thing (don't hold your breath) -easier buoyancy -a problem like losing the reg is easier to deal with (virtually all contingencies are simpler) -shorter briefing necessary (since he likely won't be able to do/recall any of it in the water anyway) Do you remember your first time in the water? Everything was new and chances are you likely didn't see much because you were too concerned with what you had to do. My humble suggestion would be to make it as simple and easy for him as possible, and that's still OC.
(Online)

14th January 2008, 18:37	#8 (permalink)
deepnark RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: norfolk uk Posts: 182	Re: To start here or there.... hi Put him straight on ccr ,but with oc training done at the same time for bail out purposes. Watch this space in a few years it will be the norm to start on ccr. ray __________________ *KISS CCR INSTRUCTOR* Today is a gd day to dive Abyss Diver Training
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15th January 2008, 00:26	#9 (permalink)
kevin stone Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: us ct. Posts: 228	Re: To start here or there.... Quote: (Originally Posted by Marvintpa) Him on OC with a single AL80, and here's why: -reduced task loading -less gear -less clutter, ie. less intimidation -less to go wrong -only really have to remember one thing (don't hold your breath) -easier buoyancy -a problem like losing the reg is easier to deal with (virtually all contingencies are simpler) -shorter briefing necessary (since he likely won't be able to do/recall any of it in the water anyway) Do you remember your first time in the water? Everything was new and chances are you likely didn't see much because you were too concerned with what you had to do. My humble suggestion would be to make it as simple and easy for him as possible, and that's still OC. I agree totally,well put Kevin
(Online)

15th January 2008, 03:29	#10 (permalink)
Abbo Nicholas Smith Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tokyo Posts: 460	Re: To start here or there.... Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) Straight to CC I would say. It so much easier to teach "an open mind" that does not have the good old bad habbits from oc diving. Thats my opinion, JH In the immortal words of John McEnroe "you cannot be serious!" The skills you lose first in an emergency are those you learned least thoroughly. When you're at the shit/fan interface, bailing out to OC, that's no time for saying to yourself "now, I wonder how this works"! OC's the most basic skill and your life depends on it: surely it should be over-learned first. `It's the oldest rule in the book,' said the King. `Then it ought to be Number One,' said Alice. When everything goes tits up, rebreather divers bail to OC; I don't know any OC divers who bail to closed circuit. Ergo, OC is more reliable and simpler. That sounds like what a beginner would want: simple and reliable. In a week when a diver died on a rebreather in a 1.5m-deep swimming pool, honour the dead by learning from them.
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