SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method

***jradomski*** · 1st January 2008, 16:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC)

hmmm... let us keep it simple... if you did that at 6 meters with O2 without doing ever a diluent flush... would you live or die?

The po2 would continue to drop, but it would take a long time for it to reach a point that it wount sustain life (this is not true if you have not been significantly deeper than 6m).. You need the flushes to keep the deco within some predictable range...

The fastest drop is within the first 5 mins or so at a stop depth (depends if He is present or not) , as time goes on it takes longer and longer to drop.. so you do a flush at say 5 mins, the next one can be double that to the around the same point.. and so on and so on..

Hanssing · 1st January 2008, 16:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

secondly the calculation is EASY for you metric folk.. move the decimal place one spot and you have how many breaths to add to 5.. even if someone was really narced they cound do this..

Dear Joe,

I'm not challeging that you will survive. I'm challenging the formula being used as "constant/average" FO2 when in fact its not.
As for teaching the student how do you explain the reasoning behind it?
To me its a blackbox formula, with no real logic behind it - I just have to accept it works..... If used under certain assuptions.

If its used on Mod1, thats air dil why not just make it: 3*P_abs?
Thats even simpler?

Nicolai

Mdemon · 1st January 2008, 17:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Yes, it's an *experts* technique, and in deference to Mark Nix's counseling session that he gave me at the quarry about a year ago (Dec 31 a year ago, actually the "Last Ditch at Dutch"), I'm not gonna publish this stuff here because, as he said, "people are going to try it who ought not to, and they are gonna get hurt".

What, like Rebreather divers? Sorry Dave, you're being a little hypocritical here - either "we have all the tools or 'we're partially trained'" or we aren't to be trusted knowing the secret "Grand Master" techniques, Cedric's or otherwise, for Intellectual Property or (much worse) 'safety' reasons.

All these techniques are nice to have in the back pocket and can obviously be tried and tested using working electronics - perhaps someone bored can try them all out and say which is best?

Personally, I'll put my faith in redundant electronics and bailout and hope to God I never have to try and remember an SCR-on-the-fly technique.

Hanssing · 1st January 2008, 17:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC)

Nicolai,
Cedric explains it very well in his book to the standards that you require.

It is a bit unfair to ask an instructor to give you a full course on RBW on SCR bail-out techniques.

I'm sure he does not, and I'm not joning the club, sorry.

As for Joe, he can just not reply, and I'm sure that if he felt I was pressing him he would let me know in a PM.

Quote:

DO NOT DO AS YOU READ ON THE NET AND ESPECIALLY DO NOT TRY DAVE'S TECHNIQUE OR ANY PURE O2 REBREATHER TECHNIQUE WITHOUT PROPER INSTRUCTION. THERE ARE TOO MANY THINGS AS NEWBIES WHICH WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND YET AND WHICH CAN KILL US.

[/quote]

Come on,

Im not shutting down my electronics so I have PPO-monitoring. I'm ofcourse also not running the loop down to a low PPO (as I wrote earlier, I consider this dicey). I will however try all these techniques, for all the good reasons there are to do so, why else are we having this discussion?

Nicoai

Janos · 1st January 2008, 17:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

What, like Rebreather divers? Sorry Dave, you're being a little hypocritical here - either "we have all the tools or 'we're partially trained'" or we aren't to be trusted knowing the secret "Grand Master" techniques, Cedric's or otherwise, for Intellectual Property or (much worse) 'safety' reasons.

All these techniques are nice to have in the back pocket and can obviously be tried and tested using working electronics - perhaps someone bored can try them all out and say which is best?

Personally, I'll put my faith in redundant electronics and bailout and hope to God I never have to try and remember an SCR-on-the-fly technique.

I agree! Treat adults as adults. Put the information in front of them, tell them that it's dangerous, and then it's their choice.

For example, having had one catestrophic loop flood which sealed the loop at the base of the scrubber, I'm very much into taking sufficient OC bailout, so SCR is really of interest to me, rather than practical use. However, if informed adults want to dive Alpinist, then provided they are informed of the risks, then that's their choice.

Janos

Hanssing · 1st January 2008, 17:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC)

How about if I told you that you will meet people on the net who will tell you something is safe and they have done it all the times, just to let you be the guinea pig to try something new for the first time and then see what happens?

What the F***ck are you talking about?
Are you totally

?

If I did not have what I consider sound understanding of the techinque I would not dream of doing it - period.
If I have the understanding, pros and cons alike, I will gladly test it, unless I could see some danger to it.

You are really trying to wind people up aren't you?
I have never ever done this before, but you are on ignore for a month sorry.

Nicolai

dz3866 · 1st January 2008, 17:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC)

You would live if you could monitor your pPO2 with your electronics or maybe if you o2 flushed (AT 6 METERS!!!) maybe every ten minutes or so.

WARNING! This technique is potentially very dangerous and must not be attempted without proper training and practise whilst monitoring the ppO 2 displays... SO DO NOT DO IT!

You can and will live with no monitoring if you go out and practice a procedure that Dave hints about,(maintain PO2 at known depth/ pay attention to pos-neg boyancy.

PCDiver · 1st January 2008, 18:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC)

How do you measure the amount of He and N2 which you have offgassed in the loop from paying attention to pos-neg buoyancy

Do some long deco dives, then you get a feel for how much inert gas you exhale back into the loop. Like Joe said, the offgassing quickly slows down.

diverklondike · 1st January 2008, 19:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)
You need to stop posting for a few days and cool things off, IMHO.

Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC)

Thank-you for your good and wise words of advise.

I am not planning any other posts other than what is necessary to understand what Dave's methodology is and how it works or does not work.

I pledge not to post till mid-February once the above is achieved.

I am sure that Dave will be happy to PM the information to you at a later time so that we do not have to endure any further pain. This will allow you to make good on your promise mentioned above...

sunnyboy · 1st January 2008, 19:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC)

I accept that experience helps (and I do not have enough), but I am not prepared to accept at this stage that given all the variables involved in the ongassing and offgassing of tissues one can measure by experience alone and using Dave's methodology the pPO2 down to 0.16 or 0.21.

You need electronics to do that or you are just plain lucky.

Yes, YOU need electronics to do it, because it is an advanced technique.

ADVANCED.

As in "not taught in MOD1". hint - there's a very good reason why it's not taught in MOD1... can you guess what it is?

No? Didn't think so. hint #2 - it also the same reason why most newbies can't do it for quite a while.

Cheers,

-S

1st January 2008, 16:47	#71 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC) hmmm... let us keep it simple... if you did that at 6 meters with O2 without doing ever a diluent flush... would you live or die? The po2 would continue to drop, but it would take a long time for it to reach a point that it wount sustain life (this is not true if you have not been significantly deeper than 6m).. You need the flushes to keep the deco within some predictable range... The fastest drop is within the first 5 mins or so at a stop depth (depends if He is present or not) , as time goes on it takes longer and longer to drop.. so you do a flush at say 5 mins, the next one can be double that to the around the same point.. and so on and so on.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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1st January 2008, 16:56	#72 (permalink)
Hanssing flap-flop ..... flap-flop Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 430	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) secondly the calculation is EASY for you metric folk.. move the decimal place one spot and you have how many breaths to add to 5.. even if someone was really narced they cound do this.. Dear Joe, I'm not challeging that you will survive. I'm challenging the formula being used as "constant/average" FO2 when in fact its not. As for teaching the student how do you explain the reasoning behind it? To me its a blackbox formula, with no real logic behind it - I just have to accept it works..... If used under certain assuptions. If its used on Mod1, thats air dil why not just make it: 3*P_abs? Thats even simpler? Nicolai __________________ Woohooo - I can change my rEvo! Its going to be bitchin' tricked out piece of gear
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1st January 2008, 17:05	#73 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,946	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Yes, it's an experts technique, and in deference to Mark Nix's counseling session that he gave me at the quarry about a year ago (Dec 31 a year ago, actually the "Last Ditch at Dutch"), I'm not gonna publish this stuff here because, as he said, "people are going to try it who ought not to, and they are gonna get hurt". What, like Rebreather divers? Sorry Dave, you're being a little hypocritical here - either "we have all the tools or 'we're partially trained'" or we aren't to be trusted knowing the secret "Grand Master" techniques, Cedric's or otherwise, for Intellectual Property or (much worse) 'safety' reasons. All these techniques are nice to have in the back pocket and can obviously be tried and tested using working electronics - perhaps someone bored can try them all out and say which is best? Personally, I'll put my faith in redundant electronics and bailout and hope to God I never have to try and remember an SCR-on-the-fly technique. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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1st January 2008, 17:28	#74 (permalink)
Hanssing flap-flop ..... flap-flop Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 430	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC) Nicolai, Cedric explains it very well in his book to the standards that you require. It is a bit unfair to ask an instructor to give you a full course on RBW on SCR bail-out techniques. I'm sure he does not, and I'm not joning the club, sorry. As for Joe, he can just not reply, and I'm sure that if he felt I was pressing him he would let me know in a PM. Quote: DO NOT DO AS YOU READ ON THE NET AND ESPECIALLY DO NOT TRY DAVE'S TECHNIQUE OR ANY PURE O2 REBREATHER TECHNIQUE WITHOUT PROPER INSTRUCTION. THERE ARE TOO MANY THINGS AS NEWBIES WHICH WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND YET AND WHICH CAN KILL US. [/quote] Come on, Im not shutting down my electronics so I have PPO-monitoring. I'm ofcourse also not running the loop down to a low PPO (as I wrote earlier, I consider this dicey). I will however try all these techniques, for all the good reasons there are to do so, why else are we having this discussion? Nicoai __________________ Woohooo - I can change my rEvo! Its going to be bitchin' tricked out piece of gear
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1st January 2008, 17:30	#75 (permalink)
Janos "Two Sheds" Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: East Surrey Posts: 632	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) What, like Rebreather divers? Sorry Dave, you're being a little hypocritical here - either "we have all the tools or 'we're partially trained'" or we aren't to be trusted knowing the secret "Grand Master" techniques, Cedric's or otherwise, for Intellectual Property or (much worse) 'safety' reasons. All these techniques are nice to have in the back pocket and can obviously be tried and tested using working electronics - perhaps someone bored can try them all out and say which is best? Personally, I'll put my faith in redundant electronics and bailout and hope to God I never have to try and remember an SCR-on-the-fly technique. I agree! Treat adults as adults. Put the information in front of them, tell them that it's dangerous, and then it's their choice. For example, having had one catestrophic loop flood which sealed the loop at the base of the scrubber, I'm very much into taking sufficient OC bailout, so SCR is really of interest to me, rather than practical use. However, if informed adults want to dive Alpinist, then provided they are informed of the risks, then that's their choice. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed
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1st January 2008, 17:38	#76 (permalink)
Hanssing flap-flop ..... flap-flop Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 430	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC) How about if I told you that you will meet people on the net who will tell you something is safe and they have done it all the times, just to let you be the guinea pig to try something new for the first time and then see what happens? What the F***ck are you talking about? Are you totally ? If I did not have what I consider sound understanding of the techinque I would not dream of doing it - period. If I have the understanding, pros and cons alike, I will gladly test it, unless I could see some danger to it. You are really trying to wind people up aren't you? I have never ever done this before, but you are on ignore for a month sorry. Nicolai __________________ Woohooo - I can change my rEvo! Its going to be bitchin' tricked out piece of gear
(Offline)

1st January 2008, 17:44	#77 (permalink)
dz3866 zboy Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2005 Location: US California Posts: 148	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC) You would live if you could monitor your pPO2 with your electronics or maybe if you o2 flushed (AT 6 METERS!!!) maybe every ten minutes or so. WARNING! This technique is potentially very dangerous and must not be attempted without proper training and practise whilst monitoring the ppO 2 displays... SO DO NOT DO IT! You can and will live with no monitoring if you go out and practice a procedure that Dave hints about,(maintain PO2 at known depth/ pay attention to pos-neg boyancy.
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1st January 2008, 18:20	#78 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC) How do you measure the amount of He and N2 which you have offgassed in the loop from paying attention to pos-neg buoyancy Do some long deco dives, then you get a feel for how much inert gas you exhale back into the loop. Like Joe said, the offgassing quickly slows down.
(Online)

1st January 2008, 19:01	#79 (permalink)
diverklondike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,714	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) You need to stop posting for a few days and cool things off, IMHO. Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC) Thank-you for your good and wise words of advise. I am not planning any other posts other than what is necessary to understand what Dave's methodology is and how it works or does not work. I pledge not to post till mid-February once the above is achieved. I am sure that Dave will be happy to PM the information to you at a later time so that we do not have to endure any further pain. This will allow you to make good on your promise mentioned above...
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1st January 2008, 19:04	#80 (permalink)
sunnyboy RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Ladysmith, B.C. Canada Posts: 98	Re: SCR/VSC as a CCR Bailout Method Quote: (Originally Posted by HMC) I accept that experience helps (and I do not have enough), but I am not prepared to accept at this stage that given all the variables involved in the ongassing and offgassing of tissues one can measure by experience alone and using Dave's methodology the pPO2 down to 0.16 or 0.21. You need electronics to do that or you are just plain lucky. Yes, YOU need electronics to do it, because it is an advanced technique. ADVANCED. As in "not taught in MOD1". hint - there's a very good reason why it's not taught in MOD1... can you guess what it is? No? Didn't think so. hint #2 - it also the same reason why most newbies can't do it for quite a while. Cheers, -S
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