CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

silentscuba · 20th December 2007, 19:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by mountain diver)

Hey, I am old school, you won't stay on a loop because of mechanical failure
Why stay on it because your debating with yourself which of the three H's
is happening to you.Your wasting time, when in doubt bailout. It is still the simplest solution.And if, you don't have enough gas to bailout you didn't plan
your dive. ( plan your dive,dive your plan) anyway my two cents worth.

Remember, better to be a live dog, then a dead lion.

all the best.

I totally agree with you on this

my feelings exactly.

Nad · 20th December 2007, 23:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by silentscuba)

At least Mel's manual and anyone else that is brave enough to put something in writing gives ones perspective for discussion and maybe will expand all of our thinking. Take what you like and think about what you don't like with an open mind. Maybe we can find some common ground that will help everyone.

I had the same experience: Wrote some manuals and heard people complaining about it. It is always the same: far too easy to say something than to do it.

Have some green.

Nad

**Dsix36** · 21st December 2007, 00:11

This is both my training (scr and ccr) and my personal 2 cents:

When in Doubt - BAILOUT!!!

diverreb · 21st December 2007, 03:06

Said it before in another thread & I'll say it again.... This fixation of staying on the loop and using Bailout as an absolute last resort is foolish for most of the rebreather community, especially the newer less experienced group, of which I'm one.

For you guys with tons of experience & frequent dives, it's probably still good advice..... assuming you carry enough Bailout gas.

Get off the loop, try to figure out what's gone wrong, if it's fixable, then get back on the loop, if in doubt at all, stay off it.

You'll live to fight another day.

Richie

***jradomski*** · 21st December 2007, 04:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb)

Said it before in another thread & I'll say it again.... This fixation of staying on the loop and using Bailout as an absolute last resort is foolish for most of the rebreather community, especially the newer less experienced group, of which I'm one.

For you guys with tons of experience & frequent dives, it's probably still good advice..... assuming you carry enough Bailout gas.

Get off the loop, try to figure out what's gone wrong, if it's fixable, then get back on the loop, if in doubt at all, stay off it.

You'll live to fight another day.

Richie

For dives without required deco, OC is the easiest choice... and a good one, but once deco comes into play its usually not the best choice..

As to sanity breaths then going back on the loop.. This is where experience is the bigger point.. Most newer Rebreather divers don't have the discipline to go back on a loop that had a problem.. In the back of their minds they have the feeling that this thing almost killed me, I'm staying where I am.. Many experienced divers also have the same trouble.. So it becomes once on OC you stay OC.. If you learn to automatically give yourself a breathable mix on the loop, then you can decide whether you should go OC or stay CC.. FOr some people this choice is alot easier when a BOV is installed.. Dfferent rigs will have different levels of effectiveness on how fast you can get a breathable loop.. Rigs with manual adds and with the proper techniqe.. the loop should be able to be flushed in about a second.. which is faster than ANYONE could switch to an OC reg (not a bov).. If you go OC and want to try the loop again if you bailed to OC you have generally done nothing to fix the loop.

scubanimal · 21st December 2007, 05:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

its been my experience that long time CCR user's RMV is terrible when they go on OC .

Joe, thank you for saying that, it came as quite a shock doing my trimix drills that my ability to swim without an air source was far less then I was accustomed to when diving OC. It taught me a lesson, I now frequently check my bailout reg for position and condition as time is considerably shorter then when I dove OC.

My $0.02 is regardless of which option you choose, you must be proficient, and practice regularly. For myself, that means every dive I do a few drills.

jhaaja · 21st December 2007, 05:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

For dives without required deco, OC is the easiest choice... and a good one, but once deco comes into play its usually not the best choice..

As to sanity breaths then going back on the loop.. This is where experience is the bigger point.. Most newer Rebreather divers don't have the discipline to go back on a loop that had a problem.. In the back of their minds they have the feeling that this thing almost killed me, I'm staying where I am.. Many experienced divers also have the same trouble.. So it becomes once on OC you stay OC.. If you learn to automatically give yourself a breathable mix on the loop, then you can decide whether you should go OC or stay CC.. FOr some people this choice is alot easier when a BOV is installed.. Dfferent rigs will have different levels of effectiveness on how fast you can get a breathable loop.. Rigs with manual adds and with the proper techniqe.. the loop should be able to be flushed in about a second.. which is faster than ANYONE could switch to an OC reg (not a bov).. If you go OC and want to try the loop again if you bailed to OC you have generally done nothing to fix the loop.

If in a problem I go OC I will evaluate what is wrong with the loop and try to correct it, this is usually a dil flush and maybe O2 shut down if high ppO2. Then when I feel that the loop is again breathable I can go back to CC if I feel confident enough.

There is no point going back on to the loop if you have not done anything to fix it in the first place...

JH

***jradomski*** · 21st December 2007, 05:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

If in a problem I go OC I will evaluate what is wrong with the loop and try to correct it, this is usually a dil flush and maybe O2 shut down if high ppO2. Then when I feel that the loop is again breathable I can go back to CC if I feel confident enough.

There is no point going back on to the loop if you have not done anything to fix it in the first place...

JH

I'm not trying to be hard headed here, but you are missing the point.. most divers have trouble going back on the loop after they were "scared" off it.. also in general while the person is getting their head together most do nothing to try and fix the loop, they forget how to multitask, now they have to spend even more time fixing the loop before they MIGHT be able to get back on it.. this whole time they are on OC and time is ticking if they cant get back on the loop... This doesnt apply to everyone but a majority of the divers I have met fall into this catagory..

I guess my perspective comes from worse case situations.. For someone doing 30 mins of deco, carrying sufficient bailout isn't that big a deal, but once you start pushing things, it gets harder and harder to carry enough gas and you need to learn to manage what you have.. If you always look from a worse case perspective you WILL be prepared, it also makes your choices easier because your actions are consistent..

jhaaja · 21st December 2007, 05:50

Joe, I see your point and can understand that it might be hard to go back on the loop. I think I would be able to do it if I have done something to the loop and all seems to be good.

I dive mostly in caves so I need plenty of bailout anyway. Still I rather want to go OC the first second I feel too weird. You know that I have had one quite nasty case on CC

Fix and go back if I want or need.

This is my way and I can understand yours also.

JH

***jradomski*** · 21st December 2007, 06:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

Joe, I see your point and can understand that it might be hard to go back on the loop. I think I would be able to do it if I have done something to the loop and all seems to be good.

I dive mostly in caves so I need plenty of bailout anyway. Still I rather want to go OC the first second I feel too weird. You know that I have had one quite nasty case on CC

Fix and go back if I want or need.

This is my way and I can understand yours also.

JH

If you know what works for you then great.. I just have a problem suggesting a method that I know alot of people really can't do and many people wount know until it happens in real life.. Thats why ANDI trains from the opposite perspective since our goal is not to leave the loop unless its really necessary and to keep as many options open as possible..

The whole key to this debate is how easy canyou flush out the loop, if its difficult then its a moot point and you really have to go to OC.. If its easy, then philosophy and training comes into play..

20th December 2007, 19:25	#21 (permalink)
silentscuba rEvo CCR Driver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic rEvo Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mill Creek, WA USA Posts: 590	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by mountain diver) Hey, I am old school, you won't stay on a loop because of mechanical failure Why stay on it because your debating with yourself which of the three H's is happening to you.Your wasting time, when in doubt bailout. It is still the simplest solution.And if, you don't have enough gas to bailout you didn't plan your dive. ( plan your dive,dive your plan) anyway my two cents worth. Remember, better to be a live dog, then a dead lion. all the best. I totally agree with you on this my feelings exactly. __________________ Curt McNamee rEvo CCR Diver KISS CCR Diver www.silentscuba.com
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20th December 2007, 23:53	#22 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 980	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by silentscuba) At least Mel's manual and anyone else that is brave enough to put something in writing gives ones perspective for discussion and maybe will expand all of our thinking. Take what you like and think about what you don't like with an open mind. Maybe we can find some common ground that will help everyone. I had the same experience: Wrote some manuals and heard people complaining about it. It is always the same: far too easy to say something than to do it. Have some green. Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
(Online)

21st December 2007, 00:11	#23 (permalink)
Dsix36 Going Down? Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Deerfield Beach, Florida Posts: 1,052	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question This is both my training (scr and ccr) and my personal 2 cents: When in Doubt - BAILOUT!!! __________________ THE MORE THAT I LEARN, THE MORE THAT I STILL NEED TO LEARN!!!!!!
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21st December 2007, 03:06	#24 (permalink)
diverreb DE/MD/NJ Wreck Diver Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dover, DE Posts: 595	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Said it before in another thread & I'll say it again.... This fixation of staying on the loop and using Bailout as an absolute last resort is foolish for most of the rebreather community, especially the newer less experienced group, of which I'm one. For you guys with tons of experience & frequent dives, it's probably still good advice..... assuming you carry enough Bailout gas. Get off the loop, try to figure out what's gone wrong, if it's fixable, then get back on the loop, if in doubt at all, stay off it. You'll live to fight another day. Richie
(Online)

21st December 2007, 04:25	#25 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,992	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb) Said it before in another thread & I'll say it again.... This fixation of staying on the loop and using Bailout as an absolute last resort is foolish for most of the rebreather community, especially the newer less experienced group, of which I'm one. For you guys with tons of experience & frequent dives, it's probably still good advice..... assuming you carry enough Bailout gas. Get off the loop, try to figure out what's gone wrong, if it's fixable, then get back on the loop, if in doubt at all, stay off it. You'll live to fight another day. Richie For dives without required deco, OC is the easiest choice... and a good one, but once deco comes into play its usually not the best choice.. As to sanity breaths then going back on the loop.. This is where experience is the bigger point.. Most newer Rebreather divers don't have the discipline to go back on a loop that had a problem.. In the back of their minds they have the feeling that this thing almost killed me, I'm staying where I am.. Many experienced divers also have the same trouble.. So it becomes once on OC you stay OC.. If you learn to automatically give yourself a breathable mix on the loop, then you can decide whether you should go OC or stay CC.. FOr some people this choice is alot easier when a BOV is installed.. Dfferent rigs will have different levels of effectiveness on how fast you can get a breathable loop.. Rigs with manual adds and with the proper techniqe.. the loop should be able to be flushed in about a second.. which is faster than ANYONE could switch to an OC reg (not a bov).. If you go OC and want to try the loop again if you bailed to OC you have generally done nothing to fix the loop. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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21st December 2007, 05:09	#26 (permalink)
scubanimal New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Optima Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: May 2006 Location: San Diego Posts: 93	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) its been my experience that long time CCR user's RMV is terrible when they go on OC . Joe, thank you for saying that, it came as quite a shock doing my trimix drills that my ability to swim without an air source was far less then I was accustomed to when diving OC. It taught me a lesson, I now frequently check my bailout reg for position and condition as time is considerably shorter then when I dove OC. My $0.02 is regardless of which option you choose, you must be proficient, and practice regularly. For myself, that means every dive I do a few drills.
(Offline)

21st December 2007, 05:12	#27 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 884	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) For dives without required deco, OC is the easiest choice... and a good one, but once deco comes into play its usually not the best choice.. As to sanity breaths then going back on the loop.. This is where experience is the bigger point.. Most newer Rebreather divers don't have the discipline to go back on a loop that had a problem.. In the back of their minds they have the feeling that this thing almost killed me, I'm staying where I am.. Many experienced divers also have the same trouble.. So it becomes once on OC you stay OC.. If you learn to automatically give yourself a breathable mix on the loop, then you can decide whether you should go OC or stay CC.. FOr some people this choice is alot easier when a BOV is installed.. Dfferent rigs will have different levels of effectiveness on how fast you can get a breathable loop.. Rigs with manual adds and with the proper techniqe.. the loop should be able to be flushed in about a second.. which is faster than ANYONE could switch to an OC reg (not a bov).. If you go OC and want to try the loop again if you bailed to OC you have generally done nothing to fix the loop. If in a problem I go OC I will evaluate what is wrong with the loop and try to correct it, this is usually a dil flush and maybe O2 shut down if high ppO2. Then when I feel that the loop is again breathable I can go back to CC if I feel confident enough. There is no point going back on to the loop if you have not done anything to fix it in the first place... JH
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21st December 2007, 05:31	#28 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,992	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) If in a problem I go OC I will evaluate what is wrong with the loop and try to correct it, this is usually a dil flush and maybe O2 shut down if high ppO2. Then when I feel that the loop is again breathable I can go back to CC if I feel confident enough. There is no point going back on to the loop if you have not done anything to fix it in the first place... JH I'm not trying to be hard headed here, but you are missing the point.. most divers have trouble going back on the loop after they were "scared" off it.. also in general while the person is getting their head together most do nothing to try and fix the loop, they forget how to multitask, now they have to spend even more time fixing the loop before they MIGHT be able to get back on it.. this whole time they are on OC and time is ticking if they cant get back on the loop... This doesnt apply to everyone but a majority of the divers I have met fall into this catagory.. I guess my perspective comes from worse case situations.. For someone doing 30 mins of deco, carrying sufficient bailout isn't that big a deal, but once you start pushing things, it gets harder and harder to carry enough gas and you need to learn to manage what you have.. If you always look from a worse case perspective you WILL be prepared, it also makes your choices easier because your actions are consistent.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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21st December 2007, 05:50	#29 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 884	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Joe, I see your point and can understand that it might be hard to go back on the loop. I think I would be able to do it if I have done something to the loop and all seems to be good. I dive mostly in caves so I need plenty of bailout anyway. Still I rather want to go OC the first second I feel too weird. You know that I have had one quite nasty case on CC Fix and go back if I want or need. This is my way and I can understand yours also. JH
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21st December 2007, 06:24	#30 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,992	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) Joe, I see your point and can understand that it might be hard to go back on the loop. I think I would be able to do it if I have done something to the loop and all seems to be good. I dive mostly in caves so I need plenty of bailout anyway. Still I rather want to go OC the first second I feel too weird. You know that I have had one quite nasty case on CC Fix and go back if I want or need. This is my way and I can understand yours also. JH If you know what works for you then great.. I just have a problem suggesting a method that I know alot of people really can't do and many people wount know until it happens in real life.. Thats why ANDI trains from the opposite perspective since our goal is not to leave the loop unless its really necessary and to keep as many options open as possible.. The whole key to this debate is how easy canyou flush out the loop, if its difficult then its a moot point and you really have to go to OC.. If its easy, then philosophy and training comes into play.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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