CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question

jhaaja · 20th December 2007, 09:40

Thanks, that was new info for me. I have never had to try scr with a compromised scrubber. It might be good to get out of deeper water using scr, but you can do it on OC too if you have plenty of gas.

JH

***jradomski*** · 20th December 2007, 09:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

Thanks, that was new info for me. I have never had to try scr with a compromised scrubber. It might be good to get out of deeper water using scr, but you can do it on OC too if you have plenty of gas.

JH

its been my experience that long time CCR user's RMV is terrible when they go on OC it takes some time to control the breathing.. Unless you REALLY took alot of extra gas, your bailout is probably borderline.. So anytime you can save some of your OC bailout the better.. Then end of the dive can be easy instead of worrying if you have enough gas left..

the best way to think of breakthough is this way... lets say to scrub all the co2 out, you need 1 inch of good media, once you go past this, every pass thtough the scrubber you will scrub some co2 but some leftover plus some new passes though.. once it gets to a certail level thats called breakthrough.. now think of it this way say you now only have 1/2 inch of good media.. everytime you flush you start with nearly no co2, so some gets scrubbed and some passes though, you do your next flush and you start again.. It could take significant time for the scrubeer to totally fail.. Also in turn of having eleveated CO2 already.. If you can force yourself to take deep breaths your flushing lung flushing will be effective.. The greater you make your lung volume the less exhalled co2 will have an effect.. Think of how much gas you could save in a few minutes... But it DOES take control..

Mikel-Deko · 20th December 2007, 10:23

Amen.
I woudn't explain it better.

Also you have to think that most of the time, if you have a problem you will star ascending so you will have more gas in your loop...

Best
Mikel

Nad · 20th December 2007, 11:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

its been my experience that long time CCR user's RMV is terrible when they go on OC it takes some time to control the breathing..

Absolutly correct!

I had the same experience.

Nad

silentscuba · 20th December 2007, 13:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

If the scrubber is not working you can not use scr. Your CO2 levels will start to rise and you end up in difficulties. For scr you need a working scrubber.

In most cases it is usually the safest solution to go oc for a few breaths and asses the situation before going back on the loop.

JH

Just my own feeling here-- I think Mel's position is that you don't always know what has gone wrong and maybe by trying to figure it out, it would be to late. A person should always carry enough bail out and the proper mix to go off the loop at any time during the dive.

When something bad starts to happen, I just want to be programed to do one thing- BAIL OUT!!!!!.

Based on the fact that your bailout should be a good mix for any depth and you should be carrying enough of it, bailing out to OC is the safest thing to do. And that is what she is talking about.

A person can always take a few sanity breaths and then go back and try and sort out the loop if they so desire. At least you will survive the immediate problem if you can go to OC.

**wedivebc** · 20th December 2007, 13:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by silentscuba)

A person can always take a few sanity breaths and then go back and try and sort out the loop if they so desire. At least you will survive the immediate problem if you can go to OC.

Is that Mel's position or yours?

silentscuba · 20th December 2007, 13:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

Is that Mel's position or yours?

That is my position.

What Mel said in her book for those that don't have one to read is:

" If you notice any signs or feel funny, GET OFF THE CCR!!!!! Take some OC bailout breaths (or do a diluent flush followed by open loop); this will stabilize any physiological issues (assuming you put the right bailout regulator in your mouth for depth). Depending on the rebreather design you may be able to stay on the rebreather and do a vigilant loop flush. Now you have bought yourself some time, not a lot, but some. Remember your bailout supplies are limited and as such you need to make decisions fairly fast".

There are not many absolutes in CCR diving. Mel's manual is a reflection in what she believes, it is up to everyone to decide what they believe in.

At least Mel's manual and anyone else that is brave enough to put something in writing gives ones perspective for discussion and maybe will expand all of our thinking. Take what you like and think about what you don't like with an open mind. Maybe we can find some common ground that will help everyone.

**jepuskar** · 20th December 2007, 14:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by silentscuba)

At least Mel's manual and anyone else that is brave enough to put something in writting, gives someones perspective for discussion and can expand all of our thinking. Take what you like and think about what you don't like with an open mind. Maybe we can find some common ground that will help everyone.

Have some green!

Mikel-Deko · 20th December 2007, 14:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by silentscuba)

That is my position.

What Mel said in her book for those that don't have one to read is:

" If you notice any signs or feel funny, GET OFF THE CCR!!!!! Take some OC bailout breaths (or do a diluent flush followed by open loop); this will stabilize any physiological issues (assuming you put the right bailout regulator in your mouth for depth). Depending on the rebreather design you may be able to stay on the rebreather and do a vigilant loop flush. Now you have bought yourself some time, not a lot, but some. Remember your bailout supplies are limited and as such you need to make decisions fairly fast".

There are not many absolutes in CCR diving. Mel's manual is a reflection in what she beleives, it is up to everyone to decide what they believe in.

At least Mel's manual and anyone else that is brave enough to put something in writting, gives someones perspective for discussion and can expand all of our thinking. Take what you like and think about what you don't like with an open mind. Maybe we can find some common ground that will help everyone.

Hi,
In my frist post, i was thinking more in general than in one example.
Sorry, i've not here the book but if there are said 9 situations where she explains what to do, in most of them gives this option . Go OC.

In the other hand, i think that the book is fantastik. Gives you a good "food for thought".

When you made your Mod2-3, you learn some skills and some theory. But sometimes, it is some much that you can't take everyting from the curse.
This book gives you the oportunity to see "steep by steep" how a trimix dive must be done and what are you making wrong.

Just was a thought...

Best
Mikel

mountain diver · 20th December 2007, 17:50

Hey, I am old school, you won't stay on a loop because of mechanical failure
Why stay on it because your debating with yourself which of the three H's
is happening to you.Your wasting time, when in doubt bailout. It is still the simplest solution.And if, you don't have enough gas to bailout you didn't plan
your dive. ( plan your dive,dive your plan) anyway my two cents worth.

Remember, better to be a live dog, then a dead lion.

all the best.

20th December 2007, 09:40	#11 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 884	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Thanks, that was new info for me. I have never had to try scr with a compromised scrubber. It might be good to get out of deeper water using scr, but you can do it on OC too if you have plenty of gas. JH
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20th December 2007, 09:51	#12 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,998	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) Thanks, that was new info for me. I have never had to try scr with a compromised scrubber. It might be good to get out of deeper water using scr, but you can do it on OC too if you have plenty of gas. JH its been my experience that long time CCR user's RMV is terrible when they go on OC it takes some time to control the breathing.. Unless you REALLY took alot of extra gas, your bailout is probably borderline.. So anytime you can save some of your OC bailout the better.. Then end of the dive can be easy instead of worrying if you have enough gas left.. the best way to think of breakthough is this way... lets say to scrub all the co2 out, you need 1 inch of good media, once you go past this, every pass thtough the scrubber you will scrub some co2 but some leftover plus some new passes though.. once it gets to a certail level thats called breakthrough.. now think of it this way say you now only have 1/2 inch of good media.. everytime you flush you start with nearly no co2, so some gets scrubbed and some passes though, you do your next flush and you start again.. It could take significant time for the scrubeer to totally fail.. Also in turn of having eleveated CO2 already.. If you can force yourself to take deep breaths your flushing lung flushing will be effective.. The greater you make your lung volume the less exhalled co2 will have an effect.. Think of how much gas you could save in a few minutes... But it DOES take control.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 20th December 2007 at 13:20.
(Online)

20th December 2007, 10:23	#13 (permalink)
Mikel-Deko Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Basque Country -Sp- Posts: 449	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Amen. I woudn't explain it better. Also you have to think that most of the time, if you have a problem you will star ascending so you will have more gas in your loop... Best Mikel __________________ Mikel-Deko Basque Country www.olatu.net "DIR is the nanny state for divers who cannot think on their own" Ron Micjan
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20th December 2007, 11:18	#14 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 983	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) its been my experience that long time CCR user's RMV is terrible when they go on OC it takes some time to control the breathing.. Absolutly correct! I had the same experience. Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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20th December 2007, 13:26	#15 (permalink)
silentscuba rEvo CCR Driver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic rEvo Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mill Creek, WA USA Posts: 590	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) If the scrubber is not working you can not use scr. Your CO2 levels will start to rise and you end up in difficulties. For scr you need a working scrubber. In most cases it is usually the safest solution to go oc for a few breaths and asses the situation before going back on the loop. JH Just my own feeling here-- I think Mel's position is that you don't always know what has gone wrong and maybe by trying to figure it out, it would be to late. A person should always carry enough bail out and the proper mix to go off the loop at any time during the dive. When something bad starts to happen, I just want to be programed to do one thing- BAIL OUT!!!!!. Based on the fact that your bailout should be a good mix for any depth and you should be carrying enough of it, bailing out to OC is the safest thing to do. And that is what she is talking about. A person can always take a few sanity breaths and then go back and try and sort out the loop if they so desire. At least you will survive the immediate problem if you can go to OC. __________________ Curt McNamee rEvo CCR Diver KISS CCR Diver www.silentscuba.com
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20th December 2007, 13:32	#16 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,447	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by silentscuba) A person can always take a few sanity breaths and then go back and try and sort out the loop if they so desire. At least you will survive the immediate problem if you can go to OC. Is that Mel's position or yours? __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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20th December 2007, 13:59	#17 (permalink)
silentscuba rEvo CCR Driver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic rEvo Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mill Creek, WA USA Posts: 590	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) Is that Mel's position or yours? That is my position. What Mel said in her book for those that don't have one to read is: " If you notice any signs or feel funny, GET OFF THE CCR!!!!! Take some OC bailout breaths (or do a diluent flush followed by open loop); this will stabilize any physiological issues (assuming you put the right bailout regulator in your mouth for depth). Depending on the rebreather design you may be able to stay on the rebreather and do a vigilant loop flush. Now you have bought yourself some time, not a lot, but some. Remember your bailout supplies are limited and as such you need to make decisions fairly fast". There are not many absolutes in CCR diving. Mel's manual is a reflection in what she believes, it is up to everyone to decide what they believe in. At least Mel's manual and anyone else that is brave enough to put something in writing gives ones perspective for discussion and maybe will expand all of our thinking. Take what you like and think about what you don't like with an open mind. Maybe we can find some common ground that will help everyone. __________________ Curt McNamee rEvo CCR Diver KISS CCR Diver www.silentscuba.com Last edited by silentscuba : 20th December 2007 at 18:14.
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20th December 2007, 14:15	#18 (permalink)
jepuskar NA Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 397	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by silentscuba) At least Mel's manual and anyone else that is brave enough to put something in writting, gives someones perspective for discussion and can expand all of our thinking. Take what you like and think about what you don't like with an open mind. Maybe we can find some common ground that will help everyone. Have some green!
(Offline)

20th December 2007, 14:50	#19 (permalink)
Mikel-Deko Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Basque Country -Sp- Posts: 449	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Quote: (Originally Posted by silentscuba) That is my position. What Mel said in her book for those that don't have one to read is: " If you notice any signs or feel funny, GET OFF THE CCR!!!!! Take some OC bailout breaths (or do a diluent flush followed by open loop); this will stabilize any physiological issues (assuming you put the right bailout regulator in your mouth for depth). Depending on the rebreather design you may be able to stay on the rebreather and do a vigilant loop flush. Now you have bought yourself some time, not a lot, but some. Remember your bailout supplies are limited and as such you need to make decisions fairly fast". There are not many absolutes in CCR diving. Mel's manual is a reflection in what she beleives, it is up to everyone to decide what they believe in. At least Mel's manual and anyone else that is brave enough to put something in writting, gives someones perspective for discussion and can expand all of our thinking. Take what you like and think about what you don't like with an open mind. Maybe we can find some common ground that will help everyone. Hi, In my frist post, i was thinking more in general than in one example. Sorry, i've not here the book but if there are said 9 situations where she explains what to do, in most of them gives this option . Go OC. In the other hand, i think that the book is fantastik. Gives you a good "food for thought". When you made your Mod2-3, you learn some skills and some theory. But sometimes, it is some much that you can't take everyting from the curse. This book gives you the oportunity to see "steep by steep" how a trimix dive must be done and what are you making wrong. Just was a thought... Best Mikel __________________ Mikel-Deko Basque Country www.olatu.net "DIR is the nanny state for divers who cannot think on their own" Ron Micjan
(Online)

20th December 2007, 17:50	#20 (permalink)
mountain diver Silent Lucidity Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: edmonton, ab. Posts: 212	Re: CCR Trimix Simplified by Mel Clark question Hey, I am old school, you won't stay on a loop because of mechanical failure Why stay on it because your debating with yourself which of the three H's is happening to you.Your wasting time, when in doubt bailout. It is still the simplest solution.And if, you don't have enough gas to bailout you didn't plan your dive. ( plan your dive,dive your plan) anyway my two cents worth. Remember, better to be a live dog, then a dead lion. all the best.
(Offline)

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