CCR Cross Over Training

***jradomski*** · 18th November 2007, 05:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by chunter)

I totally agree...but when is the last time you paid someone for training?

As an instructor, I can see both sides of this issue. I understand the liability issues. I have paid for training where I have learned little or nothing, and I have also been diving with buddies who have taught me a lot.

I'm sure it is awfully hard to cough up $1500 (or whatever the crossover class will cost) for training a system that you likely know 99% about before it even shows up at your door. I guess the answer is to find an instructor who can go beyond the explaination of the individual unit and teach you other worthwhile things during the class.

Aloha,
Charlie

Charlie,
It has been a while since I have DIRECTLY paid for training.. but when it boils down to it I haven't gotten a free ride either.. I still have to work with a manufacturer, which usually involves travelling and lodging expenses, and taking valuable time off from money making endeavors.. WHen I am creating training materials it also require alot of time on the phone with said manufacturer.. If anything my time and costs usually end up considerably more than someone just taking a class..

Lets take the last Rebreather that I woorked on as an example, just creating the exams and going back and forth with paul on an almost daily bases I easily spent several times the time a class would cover and thats just a small portion of what I had to work on.. Then there is instructor procedures, power points and a training manual.. and then I still assisted with an entire diver/instructor program as well.. I had to spend private time with paul, and we had lots of additional work before and after each meetings with the student.. Much more work than a diver would ever be required to do..

JonnyB · 18th November 2007, 05:39

Hi Joe, just a quick question.
According to you there is not exception to the training part.
That would mean that you and Tom Mount was trained on this unit too?

/Jonny

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Charlie,
It has been a while since I have DIRECTLY paid for training.. but when it boils down to it I haven't gotten a free ride either.. I still have to work with a manufacturer, which usually involves travelling and lodging expenses, and taking valuable time off from money making endeavors.. WHen I am creating training materials it also require alot of time on the phone with said manufacturer.. If anything my time and costs usually end up considerably more than someone just taking a class..

Lets take the last Rebreather that I woorked on as an example, just creating the exams and going back and forth with paul on an almost daily bases I easily spent several times the time a class would cover and thats just a small portion of what I had to work on.. Then there is instructor procedures, power points and a training manual.. and then I still assisted with an entire diver/instructor program as well.. I had to spend private time with paul, and we had lots of additional work before and after each meetings with the student.. Much more work than a diver would ever be required to do..

diverreb · 18th November 2007, 07:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Joe,

I think you misunderstood Tim's question.

My perception of his question was not that he won't learn ANYTHING, but will it be enough to warrant the cost of a cross-over course.

The legal obligation from the manufacturer is a different issue, and should be appreciated by everyone since it is an American manufacturer (i.e. ligitation crazy in the US).

Litigation crazy?.... Why that's slanderous..... Our lawyers will be in touch with your lawyers by tomorrow!

Richie

decoweenie · 18th November 2007, 07:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb)

...Our lawyers will be in touch with your lawyers by tomorrow!

I am sorry to inform you that our lawyers didn't react in time and slammed into the back of the ambulance they were chasing. So, needless to say, we are not represented at this time...

**kybrt** · 18th November 2007, 08:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Charlie,
g a class..
. Much more work than a diver would ever be required to do..

joe,

are you talking about writing the manual or the last swim of the class????

paulraymaekers · 18th November 2007, 10:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by kybrt)

joe,

are you talking about writing the manual or the last swim of the class????

about joe's time: i can only confirm it for 100% (I estimate it took him at least 3 to 4 full diver courses ) :-)

about the last swim, that was ok for me

for some others....

paul

**UWSojourner** · 18th November 2007, 20:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

No-one required me to take a class when I bought my first hammerhead. No one required me to take a class when I bought my second hammerhead. No one required me to take a class when I bought my BOV, Manifold or my cis lunar scrubber.

Maybe manufacturer's should sell "replacement parts" ... housing shipped 1st week, then scrubber next, then head ...

.

Then they're just a parts supplier and if you make "something" out of the parts and get yourself hurt ... well, it's your own darn fault.

diverklondike · 18th November 2007, 20:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Yes..
Everyone will be required to get a certification on this CCR.. I have to work out all the details for a crossover, proof of proficiency will be required to qualify for a crossover instead of a full class..

The electronics are a definately an area where complete knowledge is an asset, but the assembly/disassembly of the rig and the proper packing of the scrubber is just as important.

Some very experienced HH users have already committed to crossover classes.. No one is exempted..

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I don't think you are being a jerk nor directed directly at you but...

From a manufacturer's liability standpoint he has to require a crossover.. Several of my first students are Meg instructors and some very experienced HH users.. I am 100% sure there is going to be alot of repetition, but I am also 100% sure I cant teach them something they dont know..

My next comment is not meant to be a smart ass,

If you think there is nothing you can learn from training with someone else, then you shouldnt be diving.. I have experience with many rigs and always look forward to working with someone who has intimate knowledge of the new rig, and always look forward to discussing ideas.. There is always something to learn....

Ok... I have no problem stating that I am one of the "Committed" I just read through the ANDI CCR Training Materials that Joe sent me and I am looking forward to the crossover class. I think it will be an excellent oppertunity to brush up on some skills, learn a couple new approaches... "ANDI" and meet the Manufactures requirements of getting a formal "Cert" on the rig to cover liability.

Thanks!

Mark
"Committed"

Mark Chase · 20th November 2007, 15:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

This will only come to be when manufactures decide it is acceptable..

Right now its in their ballpark as to the minimum requirements that they demand.

They had better decide fast if they want to sell a lot of units to existing users.

A crossover course should be little more than a demo of how the unit assembles disassembles and calibrates. If there is some quirk about it then fine go through that as well but basically a CCR is a CCR. Offer a course sure but don't insist on it.

I didn't need nor desire a cross over course for the Hammer Head controller If I did I wouldn't have bought one.

I loath AP but at least they got it right when they launched the Vision. No cross over required from the classic despite fundamental differences in the two units.

I have dived an Evo. It took 15mins to run through how the hand set worked and what the HUD displayed then I went diving. The Hammer Head took a couple of hours reading the manual and dry running it. The KISS took about a 40min demo of assembly procedures and a dip in the local puddle.

If I want more than that ill ask for it, I don't want it forced upon me. I however live in fear of the life insurance not paying out because I am unqualified on X unit so id have to do one

This makes me very unwilling to change. Id rather adapt what I have got which wont invalidate my life insurance.

I have just bought a Saab Convertible. I have never owned a convertible before. Or a Saab for that matter? Do you think I should do a cross over course

I mean my old car didn't even have a reciprocating piston engine!! nor did it have an auto box. Surely its dangerous to drive my fundimentaly new car without a cross over course?

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 20th November 2007, 16:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I loath AP but at least they got it right when they launched the Vision. No cross over required from the classic despite fundamental differences in the two units.

ATB

Mark

But they have been slowly changing their tune on that one...

18th November 2007, 05:23	#1 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,998	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by chunter) I totally agree...but when is the last time you paid someone for training? As an instructor, I can see both sides of this issue. I understand the liability issues. I have paid for training where I have learned little or nothing, and I have also been diving with buddies who have taught me a lot. I'm sure it is awfully hard to cough up $1500 (or whatever the crossover class will cost) for training a system that you likely know 99% about before it even shows up at your door. I guess the answer is to find an instructor who can go beyond the explaination of the individual unit and teach you other worthwhile things during the class. Aloha, Charlie Charlie, It has been a while since I have DIRECTLY paid for training.. but when it boils down to it I haven't gotten a free ride either.. I still have to work with a manufacturer, which usually involves travelling and lodging expenses, and taking valuable time off from money making endeavors.. WHen I am creating training materials it also require alot of time on the phone with said manufacturer.. If anything my time and costs usually end up considerably more than someone just taking a class.. Lets take the last Rebreather that I woorked on as an example, just creating the exams and going back and forth with paul on an almost daily bases I easily spent several times the time a class would cover and thats just a small portion of what I had to work on.. Then there is instructor procedures, power points and a training manual.. and then I still assisted with an entire diver/instructor program as well.. I had to spend private time with paul, and we had lots of additional work before and after each meetings with the student.. Much more work than a diver would ever be required to do.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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18th November 2007, 05:39	#2 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 975	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Hi Joe, just a quick question. According to you there is not exception to the training part. That would mean that you and Tom Mount was trained on this unit too? /Jonny Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Charlie, It has been a while since I have DIRECTLY paid for training.. but when it boils down to it I haven't gotten a free ride either.. I still have to work with a manufacturer, which usually involves travelling and lodging expenses, and taking valuable time off from money making endeavors.. WHen I am creating training materials it also require alot of time on the phone with said manufacturer.. If anything my time and costs usually end up considerably more than someone just taking a class.. Lets take the last Rebreather that I woorked on as an example, just creating the exams and going back and forth with paul on an almost daily bases I easily spent several times the time a class would cover and thats just a small portion of what I had to work on.. Then there is instructor procedures, power points and a training manual.. and then I still assisted with an entire diver/instructor program as well.. I had to spend private time with paul, and we had lots of additional work before and after each meetings with the student.. Much more work than a diver would ever be required to do.. __________________ A quote from Crazyduck - In remembering our own Rob Davies. "Outbound flight 777 heavy you are cleared for flight Due west into that warm red Texas sunset You have angels on your wings and divers memories on your six." Rest In Peace http://www.divetekcyprus.com http://www.diveccr.com
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18th November 2007, 07:31	#3 (permalink)
diverreb DE/MD/NJ Wreck Diver Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dover, DE Posts: 596	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Joe, I think you misunderstood Tim's question. My perception of his question was not that he won't learn ANYTHING, but will it be enough to warrant the cost of a cross-over course. The legal obligation from the manufacturer is a different issue, and should be appreciated by everyone since it is an American manufacturer (i.e. ligitation crazy in the US). Litigation crazy?.... Why that's slanderous..... Our lawyers will be in touch with your lawyers by tomorrow! Richie
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18th November 2007, 07:35	#4 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb) ...Our lawyers will be in touch with your lawyers by tomorrow! I am sorry to inform you that our lawyers didn't react in time and slammed into the back of the ambulance they were chasing. So, needless to say, we are not represented at this time...
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18th November 2007, 08:18	#5 (permalink)
kybrt too legit to quit Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Neuw Yawk Posts: 338	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Charlie, g a class.. . Much more work than a diver would ever be required to do.. joe, are you talking about writing the manual or the last swim of the class???? __________________ Marv Fidelis Ad Mortem www.diveboatkaren.com
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18th November 2007, 10:08	#6 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,498	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by kybrt) joe, are you talking about writing the manual or the last swim of the class???? about joe's time: i can only confirm it for 100% (I estimate it took him at least 3 to 4 full diver courses ) :-) about the last swim, that was ok for me for some others.... paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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18th November 2007, 20:03	#7 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 556	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) No-one required me to take a class when I bought my first hammerhead. No one required me to take a class when I bought my second hammerhead. No one required me to take a class when I bought my BOV, Manifold or my cis lunar scrubber. Maybe manufacturer's should sell "replacement parts" ... housing shipped 1st week, then scrubber next, then head ... . Then they're just a parts supplier and if you make "something" out of the parts and get yourself hurt ... well, it's your own darn fault.
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18th November 2007, 20:03	#8 (permalink)
diverklondike Just one of the Peasants Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,609	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Yes.. Everyone will be required to get a certification on this CCR.. I have to work out all the details for a crossover, proof of proficiency will be required to qualify for a crossover instead of a full class.. The electronics are a definately an area where complete knowledge is an asset, but the assembly/disassembly of the rig and the proper packing of the scrubber is just as important. Some very experienced HH users have already committed to crossover classes.. No one is exempted.. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I don't think you are being a jerk nor directed directly at you but... From a manufacturer's liability standpoint he has to require a crossover.. Several of my first students are Meg instructors and some very experienced HH users.. I am 100% sure there is going to be alot of repetition, but I am also 100% sure I cant teach them something they dont know.. My next comment is not meant to be a smart ass, If you think there is nothing you can learn from training with someone else, then you shouldnt be diving.. I have experience with many rigs and always look forward to working with someone who has intimate knowledge of the new rig, and always look forward to discussing ideas.. There is always something to learn.... Ok... I have no problem stating that I am one of the "Committed" I just read through the ANDI CCR Training Materials that Joe sent me and I am looking forward to the crossover class. I think it will be an excellent oppertunity to brush up on some skills, learn a couple new approaches... "ANDI" and meet the Manufactures requirements of getting a formal "Cert" on the rig to cover liability. Thanks! Mark "Committed" Last edited by diverklondike : 18th November 2007 at 20:11.
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20th November 2007, 15:48	#9 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,694	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) This will only come to be when manufactures decide it is acceptable.. Right now its in their ballpark as to the minimum requirements that they demand. They had better decide fast if they want to sell a lot of units to existing users. A crossover course should be little more than a demo of how the unit assembles disassembles and calibrates. If there is some quirk about it then fine go through that as well but basically a CCR is a CCR. Offer a course sure but don't insist on it. I didn't need nor desire a cross over course for the Hammer Head controller If I did I wouldn't have bought one. I loath AP but at least they got it right when they launched the Vision. No cross over required from the classic despite fundamental differences in the two units. I have dived an Evo. It took 15mins to run through how the hand set worked and what the HUD displayed then I went diving. The Hammer Head took a couple of hours reading the manual and dry running it. The KISS took about a 40min demo of assembly procedures and a dip in the local puddle. If I want more than that ill ask for it, I don't want it forced upon me. I however live in fear of the life insurance not paying out because I am unqualified on X unit so id have to do one This makes me very unwilling to change. Id rather adapt what I have got which wont invalidate my life insurance. I have just bought a Saab Convertible. I have never owned a convertible before. Or a Saab for that matter? Do you think I should do a cross over course I mean my old car didn't even have a reciprocating piston engine!! nor did it have an auto box. Surely its dangerous to drive my fundimentaly new car without a cross over course? ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System Last edited by Mark Chase : 20th November 2007 at 15:52.
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20th November 2007, 16:06	#10 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,998	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I loath AP but at least they got it right when they launched the Vision. No cross over required from the classic despite fundamental differences in the two units. ATB Mark But they have been slowly changing their tune on that one... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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