CCR Cross Over Training

***jradomski*** · 23rd November 2007, 20:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by caver99)

----
Hi Joe,
this brings us to the point that any classes are only possible in Switzeland, Lichtenstein or Norway in Europe.

Not a very good situation I would say.
So in fact most of the rebreathers world wide can not be trained and sold here.
Anybody interessted has to do a holiday abroad or so.

This makes is even more usefull to have "neutral C-cards" like mCCR Diver or Instructor.
So this instructor can teach a student on an official unit, lets stay with mCCR, the Submatix e.g, which has a CE.
(..Or on a buddy inspiration for eCCR and the student goues privatly later on on a MEG, or Boris or...))

Then the student is trained and can get a Classic Kiss if he likes this better maybe.
He only needs an introduction, a good manufactures manual to figure out the small differences in the units. As he takes care on his life and family and his behaviour he of course will try the other unit in a pool for timming, fitting adjusting, bail out proceedrues...and and ...as learned in the previous class on an official unit....before starting 100m jumps on trimix of course.

Greetings
Martin

The law doesnt APPEAR to prohibit classes within the EU since the STUDENT is not using it professionally.. The INSTRUCTOR just appears to be limited and has to be using CE certified equipment..

Gobfish1 · 24th November 2007, 06:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

standard (across all rigs) for a current CCR instructor to another rig at the minimum level is 25hours plus 25 dives on the rig.. A new instructor requires at least 100 hours on the rig.. Some rigs like the rEvo require the crossing instructor to log at least 50 hours..

No Name s from me ,

But what about the instructors that can fly over the pond for the week end and come back with not one but two new cards to teach
two new units ,,,

in two years time you will be able to pick up a unit for 1200 pound on a flea market and do what you like ,,,

decoweenie · 24th November 2007, 06:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

in two years time you will be ablle to pick up a unit for 1200 pound on a flea market and do what you like ,,,

Exactly!

***jradomski*** · 24th November 2007, 07:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

No Name s from me ,

But what about the instructors that can fly over the pond for the week end and come back with not one but two new cards to teach
two new units ,,,

in two years time you will be able to pick up a unit for 1200 pound on a flea market and do what you like ,,,

It varies with agency.. I was just stating ANDI's requirements.. To get into and stay in teaching status the hours and "ownership" requirements are a must..

with ANDI a person can take the training and get a provisional rating but wount become active until all other requirements are met..

Gobfish1 · 24th November 2007, 09:12

thanks for the reply ,,

caver99 · 24th November 2007, 12:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

The law doesnt APPEAR to prohibit classes within the EU since the STUDENT is not using it professionally.. The INSTRUCTOR just appears to be limited and has to be using CE certified equipment..

------- -

So if I understand your answer corretcly, an Instructor has to use CE certified equipment when using it proffessionally and teaching a class.
The student not, he is private. OK, fine and clear.

So how does it work in reality?
Is the instructor using his CE certified Rebreather, an inspiration eg. and teaches the students on a MEG?
Means he is explaning the Inspi, diving the Inspi and anything else...but he class is a MEG class because there is picture of a MEG on he wall. or the student is diving the MEG....or so...

What I mean, you say the law says an Instructor can not use non CE certified material when teaching (which is correct by the way), so how in any way he can teach a class on any non CE Reb???? I mean practically!

Anything he teaches...is in the way ..professionel, because he does not teach privately as he gets paid for the class of course. (and needs his insurance just in case of..)

I do not see clear how an Instructor can official and legal teach a class on a Classic Kiss, rEvo, Meg or.... in the EU.

(---as anybody knows. as long as nothing happens...no one cares..but what if something happens during a class...or later!! This is the big question---)

As I am Instructor trainer for SCR and m/eCCR I know this dilemma clearly. Most available and nice units do not have (care) on CE.

If an instructor e.g. teaches lets say at the Bodensee in Germany a class on any mCCR-unit (exept Submatix, which has CE) and writes a c-card for that..(CCR Diver Classic Kiss e.g.) he also gives a permant evidence of his not 100% legal action with this card of course as all dates and location is required for that.

I know this discussion is tricky like cutting hairs...but neccesary to think about.

..enjoy the weekend for some nice dives...

Martin

paulraymaekers · 24th November 2007, 14:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by caver99)

------- -

So if I understand your answer corretcly, an Instructor has to use CE certified equipment when using it proffessionally and teaching a class.
The student not, he is private. OK, fine and clear.

So how does it work in reality?
Is the instructor using his CE certified Rebreather, an inspiration eg. and teaches the students on a MEG?
Means he is explaning the Inspi, diving the Inspi and anything else...but he class is a MEG class because there is picture of a MEG on he wall. or the student is diving the MEG....or so...

What I mean, you say the law says an Instructor can not use non CE certified material when teaching (which is correct by the way), so how in any way he can teach a class on any non CE Reb???? I mean practically!

Anything he teaches...is in the way ..professionel, because he does not teach privately as he gets paid for the class of course. (and needs his insurance just in case of..)

I do not see clear how an Instructor can official and legal teach a class on a Classic Kiss, rEvo, Meg or.... in the EU.

(---as anybody knows. as long as nothing happens...no one cares..but what if something happens during a class...or later!! This is the big question---)

As I am Instructor trainer for SCR and m/eCCR I know this dilemma clearly. Most available and nice units do not have (care) on CE.

If an instructor e.g. teaches lets say at the Bodensee in Germany a class on any mCCR-unit (exept Submatix, which has CE) and writes a c-card for that..(CCR Diver Classic Kiss e.g.) he also gives a permant evidence of his not 100% legal action with this card of course as all dates and location is required for that.

I know this discussion is tricky like cutting hairs...but neccesary to think about.

..enjoy the weekend for some nice dives...

Martin

hi Martin,
it is not illegal that the student has a non-CE unit on his back.
According to law the instructor must have CE gear on his back. (not it switserland! :-)

so theoretical according to law: the instructor uses an inspo, the student a meg
practically... depends on the instructor

regards
paul

Dutchy · 24th November 2007, 15:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

practically... depends on the instructor

regards
paul

Yup, my instructor used OC, rEvo, Boris and Meg all during and right after the course. (After official training part I just buddied up for e few more diveswith him). I have forgotton

what rebreather was when...

caver99 · 24th November 2007, 16:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

hi Martin,
it is not illegal that the student has a non-CE unit on his back.
According to law the instructor must have CE gear on his back. (not it switserland! :-)

so theoretical according to law: the instructor uses an inspo, the student a meg
practically... depends on the instructor

regards
paul

...I love the difference between theory and reality (practise)...

Martin

caver99 · 24th November 2007, 16:18

I have seen some side current coming up, drifting away from topic, so lets inflate the deko ballon rest on a deep stop and resume and think..always good with some nitrogen left in brain.......

So far I personally do not see a clue on the CCR cross over situation.
I can not understand why someone certified and trained on an Inspi (maybe with Hammerhead Elec) can not easily get and dive a Meg or why someone trained on a mCCR like any KISS style not easily can switch to rEvo or Submatix mCCR.
As everyone here never asked for the situation, someone is trained on a Ray all say, yes of course he can switch to Dolphin or Submatix SCR, easily, just ready the manual, d a chekc dive and go..
This seems to be quite obviously and clear to everyone or missed I something?

-so let´s surface for the next stop....less N2 ..

Martin

23rd November 2007, 20:26	#81 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by caver99) ---- Hi Joe, this brings us to the point that any classes are only possible in Switzeland, Lichtenstein or Norway in Europe. Not a very good situation I would say. So in fact most of the rebreathers world wide can not be trained and sold here. Anybody interessted has to do a holiday abroad or so. This makes is even more usefull to have "neutral C-cards" like mCCR Diver or Instructor. So this instructor can teach a student on an official unit, lets stay with mCCR, the Submatix e.g, which has a CE. (..Or on a buddy inspiration for eCCR and the student goues privatly later on on a MEG, or Boris or...)) Then the student is trained and can get a Classic Kiss if he likes this better maybe. He only needs an introduction, a good manufactures manual to figure out the small differences in the units. As he takes care on his life and family and his behaviour he of course will try the other unit in a pool for timming, fitting adjusting, bail out proceedrues...and and ...as learned in the previous class on an official unit....before starting 100m jumps on trimix of course. Greetings Martin The law doesnt APPEAR to prohibit classes within the EU since the STUDENT is not using it professionally.. The INSTRUCTOR just appears to be limited and has to be using CE certified equipment.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 23rd November 2007 at 20:31.
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24th November 2007, 06:12	#82 (permalink)
Gobfish1 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 397	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) standard (across all rigs) for a current CCR instructor to another rig at the minimum level is 25hours plus 25 dives on the rig.. A new instructor requires at least 100 hours on the rig.. Some rigs like the rEvo require the crossing instructor to log at least 50 hours.. No Name s from me , But what about the instructors that can fly over the pond for the week end and come back with not one but two new cards to teach two new units ,,, in two years time you will be able to pick up a unit for 1200 pound on a flea market and do what you like ,,, __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3 Last edited by Gobfish1 : 24th November 2007 at 06:59.
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24th November 2007, 06:51	#83 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) in two years time you will be ablle to pick up a unit for 1200 pound on a flea market and do what you like ,,, Exactly!
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24th November 2007, 07:08	#84 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) No Name s from me , But what about the instructors that can fly over the pond for the week end and come back with not one but two new cards to teach two new units ,,, in two years time you will be able to pick up a unit for 1200 pound on a flea market and do what you like ,,, It varies with agency.. I was just stating ANDI's requirements.. To get into and stay in teaching status the hours and "ownership" requirements are a must.. with ANDI a person can take the training and get a provisional rating but wount become active until all other requirements are met.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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24th November 2007, 09:12	#85 (permalink)
Gobfish1 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 397	Re: CCR Cross Over Training thanks for the reply ,, __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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24th November 2007, 12:18	#86 (permalink)
caver99 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Philippines, Germany Posts: 62	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) The law doesnt APPEAR to prohibit classes within the EU since the STUDENT is not using it professionally.. The INSTRUCTOR just appears to be limited and has to be using CE certified equipment.. ------- - So if I understand your answer corretcly, an Instructor has to use CE certified equipment when using it proffessionally and teaching a class. The student not, he is private. OK, fine and clear. So how does it work in reality? Is the instructor using his CE certified Rebreather, an inspiration eg. and teaches the students on a MEG? Means he is explaning the Inspi, diving the Inspi and anything else...but he class is a MEG class because there is picture of a MEG on he wall. or the student is diving the MEG....or so... What I mean, you say the law says an Instructor can not use non CE certified material when teaching (which is correct by the way), so how in any way he can teach a class on any non CE Reb???? I mean practically! Anything he teaches...is in the way ..professionel, because he does not teach privately as he gets paid for the class of course. (and needs his insurance just in case of..) I do not see clear how an Instructor can official and legal teach a class on a Classic Kiss, rEvo, Meg or.... in the EU. (---as anybody knows. as long as nothing happens...no one cares..but what if something happens during a class...or later!! This is the big question---) As I am Instructor trainer for SCR and m/eCCR I know this dilemma clearly. Most available and nice units do not have (care) on CE. If an instructor e.g. teaches lets say at the Bodensee in Germany a class on any mCCR-unit (exept Submatix, which has CE) and writes a c-card for that..(CCR Diver Classic Kiss e.g.) he also gives a permant evidence of his not 100% legal action with this card of course as all dates and location is required for that. I know this discussion is tricky like cutting hairs...but neccesary to think about. ..enjoy the weekend for some nice dives... Martin __________________ www.tecme.de
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24th November 2007, 14:12	#87 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by caver99) ------- - So if I understand your answer corretcly, an Instructor has to use CE certified equipment when using it proffessionally and teaching a class. The student not, he is private. OK, fine and clear. So how does it work in reality? Is the instructor using his CE certified Rebreather, an inspiration eg. and teaches the students on a MEG? Means he is explaning the Inspi, diving the Inspi and anything else...but he class is a MEG class because there is picture of a MEG on he wall. or the student is diving the MEG....or so... What I mean, you say the law says an Instructor can not use non CE certified material when teaching (which is correct by the way), so how in any way he can teach a class on any non CE Reb???? I mean practically! Anything he teaches...is in the way ..professionel, because he does not teach privately as he gets paid for the class of course. (and needs his insurance just in case of..) I do not see clear how an Instructor can official and legal teach a class on a Classic Kiss, rEvo, Meg or.... in the EU. (---as anybody knows. as long as nothing happens...no one cares..but what if something happens during a class...or later!! This is the big question---) As I am Instructor trainer for SCR and m/eCCR I know this dilemma clearly. Most available and nice units do not have (care) on CE. If an instructor e.g. teaches lets say at the Bodensee in Germany a class on any mCCR-unit (exept Submatix, which has CE) and writes a c-card for that..(CCR Diver Classic Kiss e.g.) he also gives a permant evidence of his not 100% legal action with this card of course as all dates and location is required for that. I know this discussion is tricky like cutting hairs...but neccesary to think about. ..enjoy the weekend for some nice dives... Martin hi Martin, it is not illegal that the student has a non-CE unit on his back. According to law the instructor must have CE gear on his back. (not it switserland! :-) so theoretical according to law: the instructor uses an inspo, the student a meg practically... depends on the instructor regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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24th November 2007, 15:52	#88 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) practically... depends on the instructor regards paul Yup, my instructor used OC, rEvo, Boris and Meg all during and right after the course. (After official training part I just buddied up for e few more diveswith him). I have forgotton what rebreather was when... __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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24th November 2007, 16:06	#89 (permalink)
caver99 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Philippines, Germany Posts: 62	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) hi Martin, it is not illegal that the student has a non-CE unit on his back. According to law the instructor must have CE gear on his back. (not it switserland! :-) so theoretical according to law: the instructor uses an inspo, the student a meg practically... depends on the instructor regards paul ...I love the difference between theory and reality (practise)... Martin __________________ www.tecme.de
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24th November 2007, 16:18	#90 (permalink)
caver99 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Philippines, Germany Posts: 62	Re: CCR Cross Over Training I have seen some side current coming up, drifting away from topic, so lets inflate the deko ballon rest on a deep stop and resume and think..always good with some nitrogen left in brain....... So far I personally do not see a clue on the CCR cross over situation. I can not understand why someone certified and trained on an Inspi (maybe with Hammerhead Elec) can not easily get and dive a Meg or why someone trained on a mCCR like any KISS style not easily can switch to rEvo or Submatix mCCR. As everyone here never asked for the situation, someone is trained on a Ray all say, yes of course he can switch to Dolphin or Submatix SCR, easily, just ready the manual, d a chekc dive and go.. This seems to be quite obviously and clear to everyone or missed I something? -so let´s surface for the next stop....less N2 .. Martin __________________ www.tecme.de
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