CCR Cross Over Training

decoweenie

Define "experience"...

From Joe's example, his student who was classified as an "experienced" KISS diver probably based on the number of dives/hours he had done, but not from the skill mastering capacity if he can't realize how full his loop was.

May be it is more fair to say that his KISS instructor didn't do a proper job since loop volume awareness is one of the most important skill sets, IMHO, but I am not going to digress...

An experienced car driver (been driving for years) doesn't necessary make a good driver, for example.

I have taken exactly 1 CCR course (*) almost 9 years ago, and have owned more than 10 different units since. It is not a huge problem *IF* you understand the basic physics of a Rebreather unit, but we can't expect everyone to have the same level of understanding.

I am not sure which side of the discussion I lean on because I know of people that would waste time/money on a cross-over, but also know people who would benefit greatly from one.

IMHO, it boils down to how well one learns from the basic CCR course to begin with.

If the instructor was not very good or the student didn't pay attention, the cross-over will help the student by giving him a second chance (i.e. Joe's case and example) - but on the other hand, we are penalizing the students who did well under an equally good instructor.


(*) actually 2 courses, but the 2nd was playing student for another person doing his instructor course.

trob09

Some time ago I posted what I thought were the salient points in rebreather diving:

- Knowledge - Knowing the unit, how it operates and othe basic 'facts' of diving
- Skill - developing skillsets and techniques that allows one to safely and comfortably use the rebreather in the dives one does
- Mindset - having the appropriate level of attentiveness and 'controlled paranoia' to conduct dives safely and stave off accidents.

In my view, 'cross-over' should really only be about Knowlege. Mod 1 & 2 should be about knowlege and skill and Mod 3 should be about ensuring the mindset is approariately existant.

I don't think anyone can teach mindset - only observe that it is or isn't there - my opinion.

I guess the main issue I have with the current level of cross-over instruction is that it's trying to impart knowlege while catching those who fell through the cracks on skill and perhaps mindset. So you end up with these sort of mixed programs that are trying to replicate Mod1 ~ 3 in a couple of days. I believe that's guaranteed to create confusion and tension for both the instructor and the diver who just wants to move to another unit.

T

decoweenie

You could say the same for the higher level course on the same unit (i.e. mod 2 normoxic, mod 3 trimix, etc) if the students were trained elsewhere at a standard lower than you expect.

Some instructors probably opt to pile more knowledge / skill on top of a weak foundation, but there are some instructors who would take the time to make the corrections.

At this point, I am lost since I don't know which side of the argument I am on as I see the merits from both.

Too bad there isn't a "proficiency exam" to see if the student needs a full x-over course or just the explanation of main differences between the units.

dave t

[quote=decoweenie;152891

Some instructors probably opt to pile more knowledge / skill on top of a weak foundation, but there are some instructors who would take the time to make the corrections.

At the point, I am lost since I don't know which side of the argument I am on as I see the merits from both.

Too bad there isn't a "proficiency exam" to see if the student needs a full x-over course or just the explanation of main differences between the units.[/quote]



Yes Piling good on top of bad is no good, and a proficiency exam is another way of saying "instructor discretion" I think any inst worth his salt is going to asses the student and act accordingly (I hope), he just shouldnt have to make everyone "jump through the hoops" if its not needed

decoweenie

That's why I just bought a Pelagian instead of a rEvo...

Well, it is not the entire story, but nobody needs to know the rest...

trob09

Yes, I guess I tend to be a bit of an idealist, thinking that divers who are certified but lack skill are few and far between.

All of the hoopla around 'instructor discretion' and 'I exceed standards and produce better divers' feeds the confusion. some time ago we'd also discussed the pilot's approach where the instructor was not the certifier. I still think there is merit in that system is it would tend to discourage wide variations in standards enforcement and diver skill.

or maybe it would just add another layer of bureaucracy...

decoweenie

I missed that discussion, but also think it has merit...

caver99

[quote=Dave Sutton;152203]It was fine for *all* of us... we just wondered about our fearless (and compass-less) leader.... Capt Al....

All of the points are well raised. It's becoming apparent that the day will come "soon" when rig specific training will become an anomoly. Analogy: Airplanes are far more complex than rebreathers, but if I'm licensed to fly light single engine airplanes, I can fly them all. Is it smart to do so without some checkout? It all depends on the skill level of the pilot. New pilot? Dumb to tr to fly a Cessna after being trained on a Piper. With substantial experience in hours in Pipers? Hop in the Cessna, read the manual, and go. No problem. Multiengine lightplanes are the same. Take that to the mCCR and eCCR levels... get checked out on one and if you cannot either (A) teach yourself the next one, or (B) be smart enough to seek training because you're not experienced enough to do (A), then ya'll probably aren't smart enough to be diving a rebreather.

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yep, I need to ask a driving school to get an extra drivers licens for my 4x4 V8...with automatic..I learned on manual gear...years ago...


I would say this is the right point and I can only 100% agree with Dave.
If someone is certified for "a type" of rebreathers, let say the type mCCR or SCR he should be able to adapt a new unit fast just by reading the good written manual from manufacture and try it in shallow water (pool) once or twice.

When I am certified dor a Dolphin (original) I would say..very easy I can dive a Ray or an Azimuth or Voyager SCR....or???
Some thoughs on Kiss style mCCR´s if smeone is trained on one unit,...no problem on any other unit I would say.

And in fact there is a know diving agency certifing exactly this.
A CMAS international member, ProTec (Professional Technical Diving), there you only can be cerified as "SCR Diver", "MCCR Diver", "eCCR Diver", so not unit specific cards are printed.
Training is always done on CE aproved units only...not many in the mCCR area..I know.

This brings us to the next point of training-cross over. Most units do not have the CE, in fact not a problem for us divers and silent dive lovers.. BUT I am questioning that training on these non CE units is legal within the EU (of course out of EU..something different). Each instructor has to check this for his country and his insurance in case...of..
What are the different organisation (TDO, ANDI...) telling about this?

Hope somene has exact detailled info on that maybe.

...lets get back to the time parts only were sold...nice..time for homebuilders...

dive safe....and make no bubububbbbles...

Martin

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jradomski

The best we have been able to verify is that its legal for an individual to import an unit him/herself, legal to use the rig in non professional situations.. The owner can not resell it within the EU, it has to be exported and brought in by the new owner.. Those reselling their units are breaking the law..

It is illegal to use a non CE unit within the EU in any professional manner.. That means someone acting as a supervisor or instructor has to be on a CE unit or open circuit.

A non CE unit can be manufactured in the EU and exported but can be sold within the EU.

__________________
Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

caver99

----
Hi Joe,
this brings us to the point that any classes are only possible in Switzeland, Lichtenstein or Norway in Europe.

Not a very good situation I would say.
So in fact most of the rebreathers world wide can not be trained and sold here.
Anybody interessted has to do a holiday abroad or so.

This makes is even more usefull to have "neutral C-cards" like mCCR Diver or Instructor.
So this instructor can teach a student on an official unit, lets stay with mCCR, the Submatix e.g, which has a CE.
(..Or on a buddy inspiration for eCCR and the student goues privatly later on on a MEG, or Boris or...))

Then the student is trained and can get a Classic Kiss if he likes this better maybe.
He only needs an introduction, a good manufactures manual to figure out the small differences in the units. As he takes care on his life and family and his behaviour he of course will try the other unit in a pool for timming, fitting adjusting, bail out proceedrues...and and ...as learned in the previous class on an official unit....before starting 100m jumps on trimix of course.

Greetings
Martin

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