CCR Cross Over Training

paulraymaekers · 23rd November 2007, 14:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

Well you're the native speaker on this forum so I won't argue with you what is implied. What I litterally wrote was "ANDI 5 level program..." but nevermind...

let's not debate about spelling, this thread is about cross over training.

As Joe explained, ANDI is not different from other agencies if you compare the number of levels for CCR. ( compared to mod1 mod2 mod3)
The seriousness (??) of the courses can offcourse be different.

paul

dave t · 23rd November 2007, 14:22

If somebody dives a classic Kiss (example) and they wish to switch to a Revo (example) which are both MCCR'S apart from a couple of hours to go through the mechanical setups can somebody explain to me why they are different to dive? I mean once you know where the button is to say do a dil flush, a dil flush is a dil flush right?

Dave

***jradomski*** · 23rd November 2007, 14:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

If somebody dives a classic Kiss (example) and they wish to switch to a Revo (example) which are both MCCR'S apart from a couple of hours to go through the mechanical setups can somebody explain to me why they are different to dive? I mean once you know where the button is to say do a dil flush, a dil flush is a dil flush right?

Dave

Dave,

I definately think there are differneces.. From personal experience obseving other divers and working with them.. Not picking on anyone in particular, but for example..

working with one very experienced KISS diver, when he switched to the rEvo he consistently had too much gas in the loop and was bubbling out the OPV which he did not know.. It took several dives of constant reminder to get this under reasonable control..

Took several dives to get flushes efficient with good buoyancy control.. Was initially unable to do it correctly with a manual add.. was ok sucking/dumping..

There were also skills that the diver never saw but thats another point to discuss

dave t · 23rd November 2007, 14:45

Yes I appreciate that but isnt that just a case of improving skills that wernt very good in the first place? Some divers need remedial work and some dont, some divers need their hand holding and some dont. I just feel that crossovers should be down to instructor discretion and they could be done in two hours or two weeks whatever is appropriate

Dave

Mark Chase · 23rd November 2007, 14:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Dave,

I definately think there are differneces.. From personal experience obseving other divers and working with them.. Not picking on anyone in particular, but for example..

working with one experienced very KISS diver, when he switched to the rEvo he consistently had too much gas in the loop and was bubbling out the OPV which he did not know.. It took several dives of constant reminder to get this under reasonable control..

Took several dives to get flushes efficient with good buoyancy control.. Was initially unable to do it correctly with a manual add.. was ok sucking/dumping..

There were also skills that the diver never say but thats another point to discuss

This is a very poor example of general CCR skills not cross over issues.

I had the same problem changing from an inspo to the KISS because the counter lungs were so much smaller. I am surprised a KISS diver had it as an issue on a rEvo? but frankly this is rubbish. Its just a diving skill that will sort its self out after a few dives its not a cross over training issue.

If the OP is blowing you hear the bubbles and you feel the resistance at the end of your breath. Its not exactly rocket science to sort. More than likely under the stressful self conscious conditions of the training he/she didn't notice but i bet they would once they settle down into normal diving.

As for the manual add thing?? if his lungs were already maxed out and he didn't notice I am surprised it made such an issue on buoyancy control??

No doubt the skills were done in shallow water where. Despite doing hundreds of hours on CCR I still find shallow diving buoyancy control to be an issue on any unit. This is likely because I don't spend any time shallow apart from hanging on a bar or a SMB.

With the cave course coming up I am consciously working on shallow buoyancy skills because the whole course will be shallow 10mish max. Seeing as my shallowest dive this year (apart from training) was 39m its relay not been much of an issue.

And before any one jumps on me for doing serious deco dives with inadiquate boyancy control I am talking about being task loaded and doing skills in 6m of water not just doing deco. Thers a big diference no mater what your chosen method of diving is.

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 23rd November 2007, 15:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

If the OP is blowing you hear the bubbles and you feel the resistance at the end of your breath. Its not exactly rocket science to sort. More than likely under the stressful self conscious conditions of the training he/she didn't notice but i bet they would once they settle down into normal diving.

ATB

Mark

not necessarily.. the loop was not maxed out.. the bubbles were from going ass up with too much gas.. since the loop isn't maxed out you dont feel additional breathing resistance..

also with a hood and the positioning its a bit hard hearing the bubbles..

This is a perfect example of not knowing the dynamics of the rig..

paulraymaekers · 23rd November 2007, 15:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

I just feel that crossovers should be down to instructor discretion and they could be done in two hours or two weeks whatever is appropriate

Dave

Dave, I can agree on instructor discretion, but to really get all the bells and wistles of a specific unit, how you do maintenance, cell checking, correct calibration procedures, correct oxigen flushes so that you get 100% in the loop without using 30 bars, all different ways of setup of a unit, getting used to the electronics, batterie changes, how to fill canister correctly... you name it... just for that part only you need a full day!

I can try to explain it all in 2 hours, but the students will have forgotten 80% of it when the evening comes!

regards
paul

Mark Chase · 23rd November 2007, 15:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

not necessarily.. the loop was not maxed out.. the bubbles were from going ass up with too much gas.. since the loop isn't maxed out you dont feel additional breathing resistance..

also with a hood and the positioning its a bit hard hearing the bubbles..

This is a perfect example of not knowing the dynamics of the rig..

But surely your going to figure out where the OPV is? Surely your buddy is going to point it out on the bubble check or on the dive its self. I would if i saw bubbles pissing out of any part of my buddies unit.

OK the OPV on the kiss is behind my head but I was on deco and herd bubbles despite my 7mm hood and i asked my buddy to check. He told me after the dive it was the OPV. I had it wide open so i cranked it shut (still works cranked shut by the way) and I soon felt the resistance of being near the top on the lung capacity.

Now i tend to dive the OPV shut all the time. I found i don't loose counter lung volume so easily if i go heads up. This is useful on wreck dives where the corridor I am swimming up could be vertical. I am aware that it would make dumping the counterlung gas on an OC ascent harder but I can handle that.

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 23rd November 2007, 15:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I had it wide open so i cranked it shut (still works cranked shut by the way) and I soon felt the resistance of being near the top on the lung capacity.

Now i tend to dive the OPV shut all the time. I found i don't loose counter lung volume so easily if i go heads up. This is useful on wreck dives where the corridor I am swimming up could be vertical. I am aware that it would make dumping the counterlung gas on an OC ascent harder but I can handle that.

ATB

Mark

The OPV fully closed is the recommended method due to the positioning..

dave t · 23rd November 2007, 15:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

Dave, I can agree on instructor discretion, but to really get all the bells and wistles of a specific unit, how you do maintenance, cell checking, correct calibration procedures, correct oxigen flushes so that you get 100% in the loop without using 30 bars, all different ways of setup of a unit, getting used to the electronics, batterie changes, how to fill canister correctly... you name it... just for that part only you need a full day!

I can try to explain it all in 2 hours, but the students will have forgotten 80% of it when the evening comes!

regards
paul

We are talking about experienced rebreather divers right?

Maybe I am underestimating my fellow Rebreather divers but I think I could pick up 90% of that by just reading the manual. I realize as a manufacturer you need to make sure your product is being used properly, I just think that crossovers as a whole are a bit overblown

Dave

23rd November 2007, 14:12	#61 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) Well you're the native speaker on this forum so I won't argue with you what is implied. What I litterally wrote was "ANDI 5 level program..." but nevermind... let's not debate about spelling, this thread is about cross over training. As Joe explained, ANDI is not different from other agencies if you compare the number of levels for CCR. ( compared to mod1 mod2 mod3) The seriousness (??) of the courses can offcourse be different. paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Online)

23rd November 2007, 14:22	#62 (permalink)
dave t RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 664	Re: CCR Cross Over Training If somebody dives a classic Kiss (example) and they wish to switch to a Revo (example) which are both MCCR'S apart from a couple of hours to go through the mechanical setups can somebody explain to me why they are different to dive? I mean once you know where the button is to say do a dil flush, a dil flush is a dil flush right? Dave
(Online)

23rd November 2007, 14:38	#63 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) If somebody dives a classic Kiss (example) and they wish to switch to a Revo (example) which are both MCCR'S apart from a couple of hours to go through the mechanical setups can somebody explain to me why they are different to dive? I mean once you know where the button is to say do a dil flush, a dil flush is a dil flush right? Dave Dave, I definately think there are differneces.. From personal experience obseving other divers and working with them.. Not picking on anyone in particular, but for example.. working with one very experienced KISS diver, when he switched to the rEvo he consistently had too much gas in the loop and was bubbling out the OPV which he did not know.. It took several dives of constant reminder to get this under reasonable control.. Took several dives to get flushes efficient with good buoyancy control.. Was initially unable to do it correctly with a manual add.. was ok sucking/dumping.. There were also skills that the diver never saw but thats another point to discuss __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 23rd November 2007 at 14:53.
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23rd November 2007, 14:45	#64 (permalink)
dave t RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 664	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Yes I appreciate that but isnt that just a case of improving skills that wernt very good in the first place? Some divers need remedial work and some dont, some divers need their hand holding and some dont. I just feel that crossovers should be down to instructor discretion and they could be done in two hours or two weeks whatever is appropriate Dave
(Online)

23rd November 2007, 14:58	#65 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,857	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Dave, I definately think there are differneces.. From personal experience obseving other divers and working with them.. Not picking on anyone in particular, but for example.. working with one experienced very KISS diver, when he switched to the rEvo he consistently had too much gas in the loop and was bubbling out the OPV which he did not know.. It took several dives of constant reminder to get this under reasonable control.. Took several dives to get flushes efficient with good buoyancy control.. Was initially unable to do it correctly with a manual add.. was ok sucking/dumping.. There were also skills that the diver never say but thats another point to discuss This is a very poor example of general CCR skills not cross over issues. I had the same problem changing from an inspo to the KISS because the counter lungs were so much smaller. I am surprised a KISS diver had it as an issue on a rEvo? but frankly this is rubbish. Its just a diving skill that will sort its self out after a few dives its not a cross over training issue. If the OP is blowing you hear the bubbles and you feel the resistance at the end of your breath. Its not exactly rocket science to sort. More than likely under the stressful self conscious conditions of the training he/she didn't notice but i bet they would once they settle down into normal diving. As for the manual add thing?? if his lungs were already maxed out and he didn't notice I am surprised it made such an issue on buoyancy control?? No doubt the skills were done in shallow water where. Despite doing hundreds of hours on CCR I still find shallow diving buoyancy control to be an issue on any unit. This is likely because I don't spend any time shallow apart from hanging on a bar or a SMB. With the cave course coming up I am consciously working on shallow buoyancy skills because the whole course will be shallow 10mish max. Seeing as my shallowest dive this year (apart from training) was 39m its relay not been much of an issue. And before any one jumps on me for doing serious deco dives with inadiquate boyancy control I am talking about being task loaded and doing skills in 6m of water not just doing deco. Thers a big diference no mater what your chosen method of diving is. ATB Mark __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Online)

23rd November 2007, 15:08	#66 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) If the OP is blowing you hear the bubbles and you feel the resistance at the end of your breath. Its not exactly rocket science to sort. More than likely under the stressful self conscious conditions of the training he/she didn't notice but i bet they would once they settle down into normal diving. ATB Mark not necessarily.. the loop was not maxed out.. the bubbles were from going ass up with too much gas.. since the loop isn't maxed out you dont feel additional breathing resistance.. also with a hood and the positioning its a bit hard hearing the bubbles.. This is a perfect example of not knowing the dynamics of the rig.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

23rd November 2007, 15:14	#67 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) I just feel that crossovers should be down to instructor discretion and they could be done in two hours or two weeks whatever is appropriate Dave Dave, I can agree on instructor discretion, but to really get all the bells and wistles of a specific unit, how you do maintenance, cell checking, correct calibration procedures, correct oxigen flushes so that you get 100% in the loop without using 30 bars, all different ways of setup of a unit, getting used to the electronics, batterie changes, how to fill canister correctly... you name it... just for that part only you need a full day! I can try to explain it all in 2 hours, but the students will have forgotten 80% of it when the evening comes! regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Online)

23rd November 2007, 15:20	#68 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,857	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) not necessarily.. the loop was not maxed out.. the bubbles were from going ass up with too much gas.. since the loop isn't maxed out you dont feel additional breathing resistance.. also with a hood and the positioning its a bit hard hearing the bubbles.. This is a perfect example of not knowing the dynamics of the rig.. But surely your going to figure out where the OPV is? Surely your buddy is going to point it out on the bubble check or on the dive its self. I would if i saw bubbles pissing out of any part of my buddies unit. OK the OPV on the kiss is behind my head but I was on deco and herd bubbles despite my 7mm hood and i asked my buddy to check. He told me after the dive it was the OPV. I had it wide open so i cranked it shut (still works cranked shut by the way) and I soon felt the resistance of being near the top on the lung capacity. Now i tend to dive the OPV shut all the time. I found i don't loose counter lung volume so easily if i go heads up. This is useful on wreck dives where the corridor I am swimming up could be vertical. I am aware that it would make dumping the counterlung gas on an OC ascent harder but I can handle that. ATB Mark __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Online)

23rd November 2007, 15:26	#69 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I had it wide open so i cranked it shut (still works cranked shut by the way) and I soon felt the resistance of being near the top on the lung capacity. Now i tend to dive the OPV shut all the time. I found i don't loose counter lung volume so easily if i go heads up. This is useful on wreck dives where the corridor I am swimming up could be vertical. I am aware that it would make dumping the counterlung gas on an OC ascent harder but I can handle that. ATB Mark The OPV fully closed is the recommended method due to the positioning.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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23rd November 2007, 15:26	#70 (permalink)
dave t RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 664	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) Dave, I can agree on instructor discretion, but to really get all the bells and wistles of a specific unit, how you do maintenance, cell checking, correct calibration procedures, correct oxigen flushes so that you get 100% in the loop without using 30 bars, all different ways of setup of a unit, getting used to the electronics, batterie changes, how to fill canister correctly... you name it... just for that part only you need a full day! I can try to explain it all in 2 hours, but the students will have forgotten 80% of it when the evening comes! regards paul We are talking about experienced rebreather divers right? Maybe I am underestimating my fellow Rebreather divers but I think I could pick up 90% of that by just reading the manual. I realize as a manufacturer you need to make sure your product is being used properly, I just think that crossovers as a whole are a bit overblown Dave
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