CCR Cross Over Training

Mark Chase · 22nd November 2007, 19:47

Modular training is the answer. I believe the manufacturers have a duty to provide instructors for those people who prefer it but I don't see why I should be forced.

Theres no crossover course fro driving different cars and the manufacturers don't get sued? Shouldent i have a cross over course getting out of my RX8 and into my Jeep 4x4?

I could easily kill myself and others believing it will go round a corner and stop like my X8 but for some reason I don't need a car specific training course and the MFGs don't appear to be concerned about this.

Same with my chain saw my shotgun and my disk grinder all of which could kill me and others but the MFGs seem cool with this.

Why is it just in diving that this is an issue?

Cert cards for Nitrox and trimix fills?? all bollocks posing as legal requirement. You don't need any training to go diving or get any gas fill its just the industry's self imposed standards that we put up with.

I remember years ago trying to buy a regulator set from a dive shop and being refused because i couldn't prove i was a qualified diver. Now they drooped this idea and anyone can buy the kit.

So if the MFGs have a responsibility why aren't they forcing training and cross over training on other items of diving equipment?

It doesn't make sense to me.

ATB

Mark

henckell · 22nd November 2007, 20:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A MODULAR TRAINING SYSTEM INSTEAD OF HAVING TO START OVER AGAIN WHEN BUYING A NEAR IDENTICAL BREATHER?

Amen!

Someone said that TDI is working on it.
What about ANDI, IANTD and the others?
Comments are welcome from anyone involved enough in other agencies.

Which agency wants to be the last to roll out modular training?

Any MFG who will resist this and still require "unit specific" cross overs? (Except Meg of course

)

***caveseeker7*** · 22nd November 2007, 21:35

Seems like IANTD has been going the opposite way, adding courses (like recreational trimix, whatever that is) as well as adding unit specific trimix classes rather than the CCR trimix they used to have.

Wrong direction IMHO.

Captain Randy · 23rd November 2007, 02:34

After reading through all of this the one thing that seems to be glossed over
is the time aspect. If we have to take a crossover why not make it 1 or 2 days. If the instructor doing the crossover doesn't feel that the divers skills are up to par they don't have to sign the card. Its hard to take more than 3-4 days at a time away from work and if the diver is competant in the water after 1-2 dives why burn more time in class.

Randy

paulraymaekers · 23rd November 2007, 08:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Captain Randy)

After reading through all of this the one thing that seems to be glossed over
is the time aspect. If we have to take a crossover why not make it 1 or 2 days. If the instructor doing the crossover doesn't feel that the divers skills are up to par they don't have to sign the card. Its hard to take more than 3-4 days at a time away from work and if the diver is competant in the water after 1-2 dives why burn more time in class.

Randy

unless you know the guy personally, you never know how good/bad he is in the water. If he is really very good, and he prepared his course 100% (going over the manual completely, specially getting to know all unit specific things before), I imagine you COULD perhaps do it in 2 days, if it is a one to one course.
Until now, and specially when doing a cross-over in group, where you have to devide your time over different divers, I need minilmum 3 days.

cross over by ANDI requires 1 confined session and 4 open waters, total in-water time (for the open water dives) 150 min, and the 2 exams

paul

Dutchy · 23rd November 2007, 10:02

Please don't hide behind the rules as they are. We're discussing what they should be rather than what they are.

So far I haven't met any instructor that incompetent that it took him 5 dives to figgure out that I'm a carefull (though not by any means gifted

) diver.

The ANDI 5 level Rebreather program drove me away. No credit for previous education is absurd imho.

I now I switched back to IANTD but will certainly consider TDI when their program becomes available.

***jradomski*** · 23rd November 2007, 13:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

The ANDI 5 level Rebreather program drove me away. No credit for previous education is absurd imho.

Please specify..

There are allowances for prior training.. Some of it is at the instructor's discression... The diver needs to prove equivalency to the pre-requisites for the class being taken..

The L5 program is taken very seriously since its an unlimited gear config/ unlimited deco and depth rating..

Dutchy · 23rd November 2007, 13:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Please specify..

The L5 program is taken ....

I didn't refer to L5, I referred the program consisting of 5 levels... It makes a big difference doesn't it?

***jradomski*** · 23rd November 2007, 13:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

I didn't refer to L5, I referred the program consisting of 5 levels... It makes a big difference doesn't it?

The way you worded it, you impled the l5 class not the levels to attain the rating..

The 5 levels break the classes into managable steps.. the student doesnt need to yake all the programs from ANDI.. The diver just need to prove they are at the prerequisite level for the program they want to take.. L1 and L2 are reqcreational levels (L1 is a BOW rating), L2 is a diver with additional experience over the BOW diver.. L3 is you entry level tech diver, l4 is an experienced tech diver, and l5 is the top of the hill.. each level sets realistic goals (l4 does not exist for CCR divers).. for CCR divers there are 3 levels... 2,3 and 5

Dutchy · 23rd November 2007, 14:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

The way you worded it, you impled the l5 class not the levels to attain the rating..

Well you're the native speaker on this forum so I won't argue with you what is implied. What I litterally wrote was "ANDI 5 level program..." but nevermind...

22nd November 2007, 19:47	#51 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,857	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Modular training is the answer. I believe the manufacturers have a duty to provide instructors for those people who prefer it but I don't see why I should be forced. Theres no crossover course fro driving different cars and the manufacturers don't get sued? Shouldent i have a cross over course getting out of my RX8 and into my Jeep 4x4? I could easily kill myself and others believing it will go round a corner and stop like my X8 but for some reason I don't need a car specific training course and the MFGs don't appear to be concerned about this. Same with my chain saw my shotgun and my disk grinder all of which could kill me and others but the MFGs seem cool with this. Why is it just in diving that this is an issue? Cert cards for Nitrox and trimix fills?? all bollocks posing as legal requirement. You don't need any training to go diving or get any gas fill its just the industry's self imposed standards that we put up with. I remember years ago trying to buy a regulator set from a dive shop and being refused because i couldn't prove i was a qualified diver. Now they drooped this idea and anyone can buy the kit. So if the MFGs have a responsibility why aren't they forcing training and cross over training on other items of diving equipment? It doesn't make sense to me. ATB Mark __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Online)

22nd November 2007, 20:40	#52 (permalink)
henckell RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 91	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) CAN WE PLEASE HAVE A MODULAR TRAINING SYSTEM INSTEAD OF HAVING TO START OVER AGAIN WHEN BUYING A NEAR IDENTICAL BREATHER? Amen! Someone said that TDI is working on it. What about ANDI, IANTD and the others? Comments are welcome from anyone involved enough in other agencies. Which agency wants to be the last to roll out modular training? Any MFG who will resist this and still require "unit specific" cross overs? (Except Meg of course ) __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
(Offline)

22nd November 2007, 21:35	#53 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Seems like IANTD has been going the opposite way, adding courses (like recreational trimix, whatever that is) as well as adding unit specific trimix classes rather than the CCR trimix they used to have. Wrong direction IMHO. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

23rd November 2007, 02:34	#54 (permalink)
Captain Randy New Member Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 45	Re: CCR Cross Over Training After reading through all of this the one thing that seems to be glossed over is the time aspect. If we have to take a crossover why not make it 1 or 2 days. If the instructor doing the crossover doesn't feel that the divers skills are up to par they don't have to sign the card. Its hard to take more than 3-4 days at a time away from work and if the diver is competant in the water after 1-2 dives why burn more time in class. Randy
(Offline)

23rd November 2007, 08:26	#55 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Captain Randy) After reading through all of this the one thing that seems to be glossed over is the time aspect. If we have to take a crossover why not make it 1 or 2 days. If the instructor doing the crossover doesn't feel that the divers skills are up to par they don't have to sign the card. Its hard to take more than 3-4 days at a time away from work and if the diver is competant in the water after 1-2 dives why burn more time in class. Randy unless you know the guy personally, you never know how good/bad he is in the water. If he is really very good, and he prepared his course 100% (going over the manual completely, specially getting to know all unit specific things before), I imagine you COULD perhaps do it in 2 days, if it is a one to one course. Until now, and specially when doing a cross-over in group, where you have to devide your time over different divers, I need minilmum 3 days. cross over by ANDI requires 1 confined session and 4 open waters, total in-water time (for the open water dives) 150 min, and the 2 exams paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Offline)

23rd November 2007, 10:02	#56 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Please don't hide behind the rules as they are. We're discussing what they should be rather than what they are. So far I haven't met any instructor that incompetent that it took him 5 dives to figgure out that I'm a carefull (though not by any means gifted ) diver. The ANDI 5 level Rebreather program drove me away. No credit for previous education is absurd imho. I now I switched back to IANTD but will certainly consider TDI when their program becomes available. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = Last edited by Dutchy : 23rd November 2007 at 10:22. Reason: typos
(Online)

23rd November 2007, 13:03	#57 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) The ANDI 5 level Rebreather program drove me away. No credit for previous education is absurd imho. Please specify.. There are allowances for prior training.. Some of it is at the instructor's discression... The diver needs to prove equivalency to the pre-requisites for the class being taken.. The L5 program is taken very seriously since its an unlimited gear config/ unlimited deco and depth rating.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

23rd November 2007, 13:30	#58 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Please specify.. The L5 program is taken .... I didn't refer to L5, I referred the program consisting of 5 levels... It makes a big difference doesn't it? __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

23rd November 2007, 13:42	#59 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) I didn't refer to L5, I referred the program consisting of 5 levels... It makes a big difference doesn't it? The way you worded it, you impled the l5 class not the levels to attain the rating.. The 5 levels break the classes into managable steps.. the student doesnt need to yake all the programs from ANDI.. The diver just need to prove they are at the prerequisite level for the program they want to take.. L1 and L2 are reqcreational levels (L1 is a BOW rating), L2 is a diver with additional experience over the BOW diver.. L3 is you entry level tech diver, l4 is an experienced tech diver, and l5 is the top of the hill.. each level sets realistic goals (l4 does not exist for CCR divers).. for CCR divers there are 3 levels... 2,3 and 5 __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 23rd November 2007 at 13:45.
(Offline)

23rd November 2007, 14:04	#60 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) The way you worded it, you impled the l5 class not the levels to attain the rating.. Well you're the native speaker on this forum so I won't argue with you what is implied. What I litterally wrote was "ANDI 5 level program..." but nevermind... __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode