CCR Cross Over Training

paulraymaekers · 20th November 2007, 22:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell)

How much is the cross over training?
If you don't want to say how much you paid, maybe Joe Radomski can answer what the pricetag is?

an easy rule for me at the moment is: would you work a full day for less then 200 euro (300 dollar at the moment)??

a full course, 5 days, one student, must cost 1000 euro

a cross over, say 3 days, one student: 600 euro seems a correct minimum

more students in a cross-over: lower price (simple economics)

THIS IS NOT AN AGENCY STATEMENT, JUST MY PERSONAL FEELING

paul

***jradomski*** · 21st November 2007, 00:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell)

Interesting post...

First, if you see a lot of people who has "gotten into bad habits", it would actually be more sensible (and economically rewarding for both instructors and training agencies) to demand refresher training every x years to keep your certificate than to demand cross over training between two similar units 1-2 times in a diver's lifetime! There goes the "safety" argument...

Second, me being an instructor who "operates out of the trunk of my car" I have difficulties to agree with (or maybe understand) the statement you made about instructor quality.

I'd rather go to an instructor who ONLY dives the unit I want training on instead of to an instructor who "offer training" on all rebreathers. Even units that he doesn't own! I think this is in contradiction to your own statements about quality, since I don't believe that someone who "offers training" on 10-15 (or even more!) units will ever get the intimate knowledge of each unit that I do on my "single" unit. There goes the quality argument...

Of course someone who has dived a lot of different rebreathers can comment on them but what are their comments based on, really? If it is as easy to become an instructor as to just dive a unit a couple of hours with an "IT friend" then the student's previous experience on a specific unit would actually qualify him to dive a similar unit straight away, since higher requirements always should be put on the instructor...

I feel this whole (cross over)training thing is very hard to explain in a logical and honest way. You said that you put a lot of time into writing training material. Well, I don't know anyone who has ever received any material from IANTD, OC or CCR... Then the IANTD courses ought to be cheaper than ANDI, right?

AT a minimum ANDI instructors must maintain unlimited access to the units they wish to teach so they can remain proficient to remain in teaching status.. That means they, their significant other half or the shop they work for must have a unit available for them to use at any time.. That means you can't just buy a rig, log a bunch of hours then sell it.. This effective limits the number of rigs a person would teach on since they would not keep rigs that are just dead money (unless you are seriously set, then why would you be teaching)..

the requirements to cross varies, but the minimum ANDI standard (across all rigs) for a current CCR instructor to another rig at the minimum level is 25hours plus 25 dives on the rig.. A new instructor requires at least 100 hours on the rig.. Some rigs like the rEvo require the crossing instructor to log at least 50 hours..

The mfg can tighten this up further if they want..

Personally I think I am at about the limit on rigs I can rotate through to maintain proficiency.. I personally also make an effort to make sure I put in a bunch of divers immediately prior to the rig I am going to teach on..

***jradomski*** · 21st November 2007, 00:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell)

How much is the cross over training?
If you don't want to say how much you paid, maybe Joe Radomski can answer what the pricetag is?

My pricing is simple I have to make at least $300 per day.. The crossover class will be between 3.5 and 4 days..

Steve · 21st November 2007, 00:13

I think ANDI's approach is spot on Joe.

**Dave Sutton** · 21st November 2007, 00:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

about the last swim, that was ok for me

for some others....

paul

It was fine for *all* of us... we just wondered about our fearless (and compass-less) leader.... Capt Al....

All of the points are well raised. It's becoming apparent that the day will come "soon" when rig specific training will become an anomoly. Analogy: Airplanes are far more complex than rebreathers, but if I'm licensed to fly light single engine airplanes, I can fly them all. Is it smart to do so without some checkout? It all depends on the skill level of the pilot. New pilot? Dumb to tr to fly a Cessna after being trained on a Piper. With substantial experience in hours in Pipers? Hop in the Cessna, read the manual, and go. No problem. Multiengine lightplanes are the same. Take that to the mCCR and eCCR levels... get checked out on one and if you cannot either (A) teach yourself the next one, or (B) be smart enough to seek training because you're not experienced enough to do (A), then ya'll probably aren't smart enough to be diving a rebreather.

With that said, I'm resigned to take the darned course for each new rig... the day is not here yet for the above to be true.

$300/day seems cheap... nobody can make a professional living charging that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Nobody worth his salt can make a good day of work out of $300.

Dave

**UWSojourner** · 21st November 2007, 01:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

It was fine for *all* of us... we just wondered about our fearless (and compass-less) leader.... Capt Al....

All of the points are well raised. It's becoming apparent that the day will come "soon" when rig specific training will become an anomoly. Analogy: Airplanes are far more complex than rebreathers, but if I'm licensed to fly light single engine airplanes, I can fly them all. Is it smart to do so without some checkout? It all depends on the skill level of the pilot. New pilot? Dumb to tr to fly a Cessna after being trained on a Piper. With substantial experience in hours in Pipers? Hop in the Cessna, read the manual, and go. No problem. Multiengine lightplanes are the same. Take that to the mCCR and eCCR levels... get checked out on one and if you cannot either (A) teach yourself the next one, or (B) be smart enough to seek training because you're not experienced enough to do (A), then ya'll probably aren't smart enough to be diving a rebreather.

With that said, I'm resigned to take the darned course for each new rig... the day is not here yet for the above to be true.

$300/day seems cheap... nobody can make a professional living charging that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Nobody worth his salt can make a good day of work out of $300.

Dave

I'm with Dave. Anyone who wants to sell me a new Rebreather I'm happy to take the course

... I need it.

But Trob09, and other like him? ... seems like the course is pointless except to satisfy a lawyer somewhere. But such is the state of most liability issues in the US. So we live with it. And Joe, $300/day is not something needing an explanation (even if you get several students in your class

).

O.C.Diver · 21st November 2007, 01:49

Joe,

I have a great respect for you and the manuals that you write are some of the best in the industry. You have a great and well deserved reputation as an instructor and course developer. The following is not directed at you personally. However, this is not a standard; it's a joke!

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

AT a minimum ANDI instructors must maintain unlimited access to the units they wish to teach so they can remain proficient to remain in teaching status.. That means they, their significant other half or the shop they work for must have a unit available for them to use at any time.. That means you can't just buy a rig, log a bunch of hours then sell it.. This effective limits the number of rigs a person would teach on since they would not keep rigs that are just dead money (unless you are seriously set, then why would you be teaching)..

I don't consider anyone who dives their Rebreather less than 10 dives a year to be current or proficient on it. For a standard to imply that it's ok for an instructor to teach a RB that he hasn't dived in 5 years is criminal!

Look I believe a Rebreather instructor is entitled to $300 a day for RB instruction. I also believe that their students are entitled to a professional who logs 25+ dives on that unit and 50+ RB dives in total per year. If the instructor is teaching trimix diluent, then at least 10 of the yearly requirement for that unit, should be trimix diluent.

IMO, one of the worst mistakes a Rebreather student makes is taking a class from an instructor who only uses that particular unit to teach with! If the instructor thinks so little of the unit, then they shouldn't be teaching it!

Serious question: Do ANDI standards actually require the instructor to dive during the class, the exact model of the unit they are teaching?

Ted

henckell · 21st November 2007, 09:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

AT a minimum ANDI instructors must maintain unlimited access to the units they wish to teach so they can remain proficient to remain in teaching status.. That means they, their significant other half or the shop they work for must have a unit available for them to use at any time.. That means you can't just buy a rig, log a bunch of hours then sell it.. This effective limits the number of rigs a person would teach on since they would not keep rigs that are just dead money (unless you are seriously set, then why would you be teaching)..

the requirements to cross varies, but the minimum ANDI standard (across all rigs) for a current CCR instructor to another rig at the minimum level is 25hours plus 25 dives on the rig.. A new instructor requires at least 100 hours on the rig.. Some rigs like the rEvo require the crossing instructor to log at least 50 hours..

The mfg can tighten this up further if they want..

Personally I think I am at about the limit on rigs I can rotate through to maintain proficiency.. I personally also make an effort to make sure I put in a bunch of divers immediately prior to the rig I am going to teach on..

Thanks for your answers. They make perfect sense to me, and even though we've never met I know you have been involved in the writing of quite a few well appreciated manuals and you also share both diving knowledge and other valuable information on this board.

My posts may have come forward a bit harsh, but they were not intended to point the finger at you personally.

I think the discussion about cross over training is necessary to take soon for the training agencies. There is no doubt MOD1 training will always be required, but the MFGs and the training agencies should join forces to present logical training programs for people who already have rebreather experience. Respectable training material to go with the training is also a prerequisite for any agency to produce/run a course!

Regards,
Henrik

dave t · 21st November 2007, 10:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

AT a minimum ANDI instructors must maintain unlimited access to the units they wish to teach so they can remain proficient to remain in teaching status.. That means they, their significant other half or the shop they work for must have a unit available for them to use at any time.. That means you can't just buy a rig, log a bunch of hours then sell it.. This effective limits the number of rigs a person would teach on since they would not keep rigs that are just dead money (unless you are seriously set, then why would you be teaching)..

the requirements to cross varies, but the minimum ANDI standard (across all rigs) for a current CCR instructor to another rig at the minimum level is 25hours plus 25 dives on the rig.. A new instructor requires at least 100 hours on the rig.. Some rigs like the rEvo require the crossing instructor to log at least 50 hours..

The mfg can tighten this up further if they want..

Personally I think I am at about the limit on rigs I can rotate through to maintain proficiency.. I personally also make an effort to make sure I put in a bunch of divers immediately prior to the rig I am going to teach on..

One of the problems we face in the UK is it is actually illegal to dive a non CE rebreather when teaching. It makes the "I wear what my students wear" very difficult!!

just a thought!

Dave

JonnyB · 21st November 2007, 10:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

My pricing is simple I have to make at least $300 per day.. The crossover class will be between 3.5 and 4 days..

Is that 300US/day or 300US/day and person?

/Jonny

20th November 2007, 22:41	#21 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell) How much is the cross over training? If you don't want to say how much you paid, maybe Joe Radomski can answer what the pricetag is? an easy rule for me at the moment is: would you work a full day for less then 200 euro (300 dollar at the moment)?? a full course, 5 days, one student, must cost 1000 euro a cross over, say 3 days, one student: 600 euro seems a correct minimum more students in a cross-over: lower price (simple economics) THIS IS NOT AN AGENCY STATEMENT, JUST MY PERSONAL FEELING paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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21st November 2007, 00:06	#22 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell) Interesting post... First, if you see a lot of people who has "gotten into bad habits", it would actually be more sensible (and economically rewarding for both instructors and training agencies) to demand refresher training every x years to keep your certificate than to demand cross over training between two similar units 1-2 times in a diver's lifetime! There goes the "safety" argument... Second, me being an instructor who "operates out of the trunk of my car" I have difficulties to agree with (or maybe understand) the statement you made about instructor quality. I'd rather go to an instructor who ONLY dives the unit I want training on instead of to an instructor who "offer training" on all rebreathers. Even units that he doesn't own! I think this is in contradiction to your own statements about quality, since I don't believe that someone who "offers training" on 10-15 (or even more!) units will ever get the intimate knowledge of each unit that I do on my "single" unit. There goes the quality argument... Of course someone who has dived a lot of different rebreathers can comment on them but what are their comments based on, really? If it is as easy to become an instructor as to just dive a unit a couple of hours with an "IT friend" then the student's previous experience on a specific unit would actually qualify him to dive a similar unit straight away, since higher requirements always should be put on the instructor... I feel this whole (cross over)training thing is very hard to explain in a logical and honest way. You said that you put a lot of time into writing training material. Well, I don't know anyone who has ever received any material from IANTD, OC or CCR... Then the IANTD courses ought to be cheaper than ANDI, right? AT a minimum ANDI instructors must maintain unlimited access to the units they wish to teach so they can remain proficient to remain in teaching status.. That means they, their significant other half or the shop they work for must have a unit available for them to use at any time.. That means you can't just buy a rig, log a bunch of hours then sell it.. This effective limits the number of rigs a person would teach on since they would not keep rigs that are just dead money (unless you are seriously set, then why would you be teaching).. the requirements to cross varies, but the minimum ANDI standard (across all rigs) for a current CCR instructor to another rig at the minimum level is 25hours plus 25 dives on the rig.. A new instructor requires at least 100 hours on the rig.. Some rigs like the rEvo require the crossing instructor to log at least 50 hours.. The mfg can tighten this up further if they want.. Personally I think I am at about the limit on rigs I can rotate through to maintain proficiency.. I personally also make an effort to make sure I put in a bunch of divers immediately prior to the rig I am going to teach on.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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21st November 2007, 00:11	#23 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell) How much is the cross over training? If you don't want to say how much you paid, maybe Joe Radomski can answer what the pricetag is? My pricing is simple I have to make at least $300 per day.. The crossover class will be between 3.5 and 4 days.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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21st November 2007, 00:13	#24 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,126	Re: HammerHead CCR Training I think ANDI's approach is spot on Joe. __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types. Last edited by Steve : 21st November 2007 at 00:16.
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21st November 2007, 00:29	#25 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) about the last swim, that was ok for me for some others.... paul It was fine for all of us... we just wondered about our fearless (and compass-less) leader.... Capt Al.... All of the points are well raised. It's becoming apparent that the day will come "soon" when rig specific training will become an anomoly. Analogy: Airplanes are far more complex than rebreathers, but if I'm licensed to fly light single engine airplanes, I can fly them all. Is it smart to do so without some checkout? It all depends on the skill level of the pilot. New pilot? Dumb to tr to fly a Cessna after being trained on a Piper. With substantial experience in hours in Pipers? Hop in the Cessna, read the manual, and go. No problem. Multiengine lightplanes are the same. Take that to the mCCR and eCCR levels... get checked out on one and if you cannot either (A) teach yourself the next one, or (B) be smart enough to seek training because you're not experienced enough to do (A), then ya'll probably aren't smart enough to be diving a rebreather. With that said, I'm resigned to take the darned course for each new rig... the day is not here yet for the above to be true. $300/day seems cheap... nobody can make a professional living charging that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Nobody worth his salt can make a good day of work out of $300. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 21st November 2007 at 00:40.
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21st November 2007, 01:09	#26 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 558	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) It was fine for all of us... we just wondered about our fearless (and compass-less) leader.... Capt Al.... All of the points are well raised. It's becoming apparent that the day will come "soon" when rig specific training will become an anomoly. Analogy: Airplanes are far more complex than rebreathers, but if I'm licensed to fly light single engine airplanes, I can fly them all. Is it smart to do so without some checkout? It all depends on the skill level of the pilot. New pilot? Dumb to tr to fly a Cessna after being trained on a Piper. With substantial experience in hours in Pipers? Hop in the Cessna, read the manual, and go. No problem. Multiengine lightplanes are the same. Take that to the mCCR and eCCR levels... get checked out on one and if you cannot either (A) teach yourself the next one, or (B) be smart enough to seek training because you're not experienced enough to do (A), then ya'll probably aren't smart enough to be diving a rebreather. With that said, I'm resigned to take the darned course for each new rig... the day is not here yet for the above to be true. $300/day seems cheap... nobody can make a professional living charging that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Nobody worth his salt can make a good day of work out of $300. Dave I'm with Dave. Anyone who wants to sell me a new Rebreather I'm happy to take the course ... I need it. But Trob09, and other like him? ... seems like the course is pointless except to satisfy a lawyer somewhere. But such is the state of most liability issues in the US. So we live with it. And Joe, $300/day is not something needing an explanation (even if you get several students in your class ).
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21st November 2007, 01:49	#27 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 244	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Joe, I have a great respect for you and the manuals that you write are some of the best in the industry. You have a great and well deserved reputation as an instructor and course developer. The following is not directed at you personally. However, this is not a standard; it's a joke! Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) AT a minimum ANDI instructors must maintain unlimited access to the units they wish to teach so they can remain proficient to remain in teaching status.. That means they, their significant other half or the shop they work for must have a unit available for them to use at any time.. That means you can't just buy a rig, log a bunch of hours then sell it.. This effective limits the number of rigs a person would teach on since they would not keep rigs that are just dead money (unless you are seriously set, then why would you be teaching).. I don't consider anyone who dives their Rebreather less than 10 dives a year to be current or proficient on it. For a standard to imply that it's ok for an instructor to teach a RB that he hasn't dived in 5 years is criminal! Look I believe a Rebreather instructor is entitled to $300 a day for RB instruction. I also believe that their students are entitled to a professional who logs 25+ dives on that unit and 50+ RB dives in total per year. If the instructor is teaching trimix diluent, then at least 10 of the yearly requirement for that unit, should be trimix diluent. IMO, one of the worst mistakes a Rebreather student makes is taking a class from an instructor who only uses that particular unit to teach with! If the instructor thinks so little of the unit, then they shouldn't be teaching it! Serious question: Do ANDI standards actually require the instructor to dive during the class, the exact model of the unit they are teaching? Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com Last edited by O.C.Diver : 21st November 2007 at 02:27. Reason: spelling & punctuation
(Online)

21st November 2007, 09:37	#28 (permalink)
henckell RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 91	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) AT a minimum ANDI instructors must maintain unlimited access to the units they wish to teach so they can remain proficient to remain in teaching status.. That means they, their significant other half or the shop they work for must have a unit available for them to use at any time.. That means you can't just buy a rig, log a bunch of hours then sell it.. This effective limits the number of rigs a person would teach on since they would not keep rigs that are just dead money (unless you are seriously set, then why would you be teaching).. the requirements to cross varies, but the minimum ANDI standard (across all rigs) for a current CCR instructor to another rig at the minimum level is 25hours plus 25 dives on the rig.. A new instructor requires at least 100 hours on the rig.. Some rigs like the rEvo require the crossing instructor to log at least 50 hours.. The mfg can tighten this up further if they want.. Personally I think I am at about the limit on rigs I can rotate through to maintain proficiency.. I personally also make an effort to make sure I put in a bunch of divers immediately prior to the rig I am going to teach on.. Thanks for your answers. They make perfect sense to me, and even though we've never met I know you have been involved in the writing of quite a few well appreciated manuals and you also share both diving knowledge and other valuable information on this board. My posts may have come forward a bit harsh, but they were not intended to point the finger at you personally. I think the discussion about cross over training is necessary to take soon for the training agencies. There is no doubt MOD1 training will always be required, but the MFGs and the training agencies should join forces to present logical training programs for people who already have rebreather experience. Respectable training material to go with the training is also a prerequisite for any agency to produce/run a course! Regards, Henrik __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
(Online)

21st November 2007, 10:21	#29 (permalink)
dave t RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 664	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) AT a minimum ANDI instructors must maintain unlimited access to the units they wish to teach so they can remain proficient to remain in teaching status.. That means they, their significant other half or the shop they work for must have a unit available for them to use at any time.. That means you can't just buy a rig, log a bunch of hours then sell it.. This effective limits the number of rigs a person would teach on since they would not keep rigs that are just dead money (unless you are seriously set, then why would you be teaching).. the requirements to cross varies, but the minimum ANDI standard (across all rigs) for a current CCR instructor to another rig at the minimum level is 25hours plus 25 dives on the rig.. A new instructor requires at least 100 hours on the rig.. Some rigs like the rEvo require the crossing instructor to log at least 50 hours.. The mfg can tighten this up further if they want.. Personally I think I am at about the limit on rigs I can rotate through to maintain proficiency.. I personally also make an effort to make sure I put in a bunch of divers immediately prior to the rig I am going to teach on.. One of the problems we face in the UK is it is actually illegal to dive a non CE rebreather when teaching. It makes the "I wear what my students wear" very difficult!! just a thought! Dave
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21st November 2007, 10:51	#30 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 991	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) My pricing is simple I have to make at least $300 per day.. The crossover class will be between 3.5 and 4 days.. Is that 300US/day or 300US/day and person? /Jonny __________________ A quote from Crazyduck - In remembering our own Rob Davies. "Outbound flight 777 heavy you are cleared for flight Due west into that warm red Texas sunset You have angels on your wings and divers memories on your six." Rest In Peace http://www.divetekcyprus.com http://www.diveccr.com
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