CCR Cross Over Training

paulraymaekers · 20th November 2007, 16:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

A crossover course should be little more than a demo of how the unit assembles disassembles and calibrates. If there is some quirk about it then fine go through that as well but basically a CCR is a CCR. Offer a course sure but don't insist on it.
Mark

Mark, perhaps a poll on the people that did a cross-over course on the rEvo ?? total 3 and a half day

paul

Ryan · 20th November 2007, 16:16

Forgive me for straying off topic, but I just did a rEvo crossover with three other Kiss divers.

I agree with this model:

Quote:

This is what I belive will cover the CCR training at most.

MCCR, basic
ECCR, basic
Crossover from MCCR to ECCR
Crossover from ECCR to MCCR
Sport Depth to Technical Depth

Those 5 courses should also cover any "liability".

My class was worthwhile because I got to badger Paul. If he weren't there, I'm not sure I'd feel the same way. I passed both exams without reading the andi texts. We didn't do any skills in the water that were new to me. It was determined in the class that I am a terrible dive buddy, but I could have told them that going in...

I think that setup/teardown/calibration/revodream procedures could be covered with a 30-45min dvd (like Gordon's Kiss DVD).

I agree that a crossover to an ECCR is likely valid because of their different failure modes, but as long as manufacturers produce appropriate documentation for their rebreathers, crossover courses from one MCCR or ECCR to another are redundant.

I'm curious to see what will be required when I add the shearwater controller to the revo. In my opinion all that should be required is a dive or two to demonstrate that I can handle ECCR failure modes. If more is required I'll likely rethink that purchase.

Another issue is that I have TDI and IANTD instructors coming out of the woodwork here in SOFLA that offer readily available and economical training. Having to import an ANDI instructor is more difficult...

***jradomski*** · 20th November 2007, 17:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ryan)

Forgive me for straying off topic, but I just did a rEvo crossover with three other Kiss divers.

I agree with this model:

My class was worthwhile because I got to badger Paul. If he weren't there, I'm not sure I'd feel the same way. I passed both exams without reading the andi texts. We didn't do any skills in the water that were new to me. It was determined in the class that I am a terrible dive buddy, but I could have told them that going in...

I think that setup/teardown/calibration/revodream procedures could be covered with a 30-45min dvd (like Gordon's Kiss DVD).

I agree that a crossover to an ECCR is likely valid because of their different failure modes, but as long as manufacturers produce appropriate documentation for their rebreathers, crossover courses from one MCCR or ECCR to another are redundant.

I'm curious to see what will be required when I add the shearwater controller to the revo. In my opinion all that should be required is a dive or two to demonstrate that I can handle ECCR failure modes. If more is required I'll likely rethink that purchase.

Another issue is that I have TDI and IANTD instructors coming out of the woodwork here in SOFLA that offer readily available and economical training. Having to import an ANDI instructor is more difficult...

Ryan,
There are good divers and bad divers just as there are both good and bad instructors...

I have seen divers that were "certified" on RBs that had no business diving one and have seen others that were a pleasure to dive with.. By requiring training for each individual rig, the manufacture increases the odds that they would not fall victim from previous poor training..

Also having required xover training allows a review of the diver's skills.. I have seen it more than once that a diver has gotten into bad habits and it gives another chance to correct things.. Not everone will get the same out of a class.. Some will feel xovers are unnecessary but you do need a set of standards to try and meet some minimum level of safety.. its also in my opinion to not be too flexible with regards to experience otherwise the good ole boys network has a chance to enter..

The rEvo training is just getting going, its only been a few months... In time there will be more options available, but you will never have instructors comming out of the woodwork.. Keeping the training selective helps keep control and quality high, and prevents those operating out of the trunk of their car and only teach a few students a year from damaging the market place for those that do it for a living and in general have greater experience....

**dz3866** · 20th November 2007, 20:12

I was trained on a kiss (ANDI) but now really like pauls Revo, but not willing to pay for a cross over, maybe a 2hr classroom on the unit and electronics $? it makes no sense to me being trained thru ANDI on one MCCR and have to pay to cross to another MCCR thru ANDI, what is the instructor looking for in the water on the cross over "hey you were able to find the manual add buttons, good job" or "nice job looking at your displays" all in water skills have allready been passed if a diver has an ANDI cert for any MCCR, he should not have to prove himself again to another ANDI instructor, its interesting to that you can buy Pauls Revodream ( or you could in the past, I did) or the hammerhead, your training on these?, you read the instructions.

Mark Chase · 20th November 2007, 20:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

Mark, perhaps a poll on the people that did a cross-over course on the rEvo ?? total 3 and a half day

paul

does this answer your question?

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ryan)

Forgive me for straying off topic, but I just did a rEvo crossover with three other Kiss divers.

I agree with this model:

My class was worthwhile because I got to badger Paul. If he weren't there, I'm not sure I'd feel the same way. I passed both exams without reading the andi texts. We didn't do any skills in the water that were new to me. It was determined in the class that I am a terrible dive buddy, but I could have told them that going in...

I think that setup/teardown/calibration/revodream procedures could be covered with a 30-45min dvd (like Gordon's Kiss DVD).

I agree that a crossover to an ECCR is likely valid because of their different failure modes, but as long as manufacturers produce appropriate documentation for their rebreathers, crossover courses from one MCCR or ECCR to another are redundant.

I'm curious to see what will be required when I add the shearwater controller to the revo. In my opinion all that should be required is a dive or two to demonstrate that I can handle ECCR failure modes. If more is required I'll likely rethink that purchase.

Another issue is that I have TDI and IANTD instructors coming out of the woodwork here in SOFLA that offer readily available and economical training. Having to import an ANDI instructor is more difficult...

And this reinforces my point

Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866)

I was trained on a kiss (ANDI) but now really like pauls Revo, but not willing to pay for a cross over, maybe a 2hr classroom on the unit and electronics $? it makes no sense to me being trained thru ANDI on one MCCR and have to pay to cross to another MCCR thru ANDI, what is the instructor looking for in the water on the cross over "hey you were able to find the manual add buttons, good job" or "nice job looking at your displays" all in water skills have allready been passed if a diver has an ANDI cert for any MCCR, he should not have to prove himself again to another ANDI instructor, its interesting to that you can buy Pauls Revodream ( or you could in the past, I did) or the hammerhead, your training on these?, you read the instructions.

The only reason I don't dive a rEvo today was the need for training course in Geneva. If it had been in the UK then I might have and i know Dave is now doing the training over here for us.

Point is if you could have sold me a unit without training id have baught it and worried about the course later when my diving schedual wasn't so hectic. Which is exactly what i did with the KISS

henckell · 20th November 2007, 20:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

The only reason I don't dive a rEvo today was the need for training course in Geneva.

Agree totally! This is the only reason a lot of people don't exchange and buy other units. It is slowing down the rebreather manufacturer's market.

diverklondike · 20th November 2007, 20:49

Gang,

I am sure that Kevin will sell lots of units because he has designed along with Golem Gear and excellent unit.

With that regardless of who you are you will need to be certified on the unit. Be it full training and or some type of crossover training.

Ok... So why have cross over training? I have easily as many hours on HH electronics in combination with many of the components that are being offered as part of the unit. I could easily make try and make the same argument that may have in this thread.

Because the MFG says so to ensure that all user have a "consistent" level of knowledge about the unit's operation and maintenance. Along with that I expect that the given training agency will cover some items that are specific to their CCR philosophy. One of the reasons that the MFG chooses to take this approach is to address liability.

With that I expect that the "instructor" had better do a bang up job in providing me knowledge and helping me improve/exercise my skills. I also fully expect that he should take my existing background into account in delivering the training to me.

When I purchased my new rig from Kevin it was under the agreement of getting the appropriate crossover training since that is what he the MFG requires.

This simply means that "if" you are considering a new CCR and it happens to be the HH CCR then you should include the fact that you will need to complete some type of cross over training. If you find a MFG that does not require cross over training and you feel that's a good thing, then include it in your decision making criteria.

Dive Safe...

Mark

Mark Chase · 20th November 2007, 21:00

Quote:

If you find a MFG that does not require cross over training and you feel that's a good thing, then include it in your decision making criteria.

I did

ATB

Mark

henckell · 20th November 2007, 21:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Also having required xover training allows a review of the diver's skills.. I have seen it more than once that a diver has gotten into bad habits and it gives another chance to correct things.. Not everone will get the same out of a class.. Some will feel xovers are unnecessary but you do need a set of standards to try and meet some minimum level of safety.. its also in my opinion to not be too flexible with regards to experience otherwise the good ole boys network has a chance to enter..

The rEvo training is just getting going, its only been a few months... In time there will be more options available, but you will never have instructors comming out of the woodwork.. Keeping the training selective helps keep control and quality high, and prevents those operating out of the trunk of their car and only teach a few students a year from damaging the market place for those that do it for a living and in general have greater experience....

Interesting post...

First, if you see a lot of people who has "gotten into bad habits", it would actually be more sensible (and economically rewarding for both instructors and training agencies) to demand refresher training every x years to keep your certificate than to demand cross over training between two similar units 1-2 times in a diver's lifetime! There goes the "safety" argument...

Second, me being an instructor who "operates out of the trunk of my car" I have difficulties to agree with (or maybe understand) the statement you made about instructor quality.

I'd rather go to an instructor who ONLY dives the unit I want training on instead of to an instructor who "offer training" on all rebreathers. Even units that he doesn't own! I think this is in contradiction to your own statements about quality, since I don't believe that someone who "offers training" on 10-15 (or even more!) units will ever get the intimate knowledge of each unit that I do on my "single" unit. There goes the quality argument...

Of course someone who has dived a lot of different rebreathers can comment on them but what are their comments based on, really? If it is as easy to become an instructor as to just dive a unit a couple of hours with an "IT friend" then the student's previous experience on a specific unit would actually qualify him to dive a similar unit straight away, since higher requirements always should be put on the instructor...

I feel this whole (cross over)training thing is very hard to explain in a logical and honest way. You said that you put a lot of time into writing training material. Well, I don't know anyone who has ever received any material from IANTD, OC or CCR... Then the IANTD courses ought to be cheaper than ANDI, right?

henckell · 20th November 2007, 21:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

I just read through the ANDI CCR Training Materials that Joe sent me and I am looking forward to the crossover class

How much is the cross over training?
If you don't want to say how much you paid, maybe Joe Radomski can answer what the pricetag is?

20th November 2007, 16:15	#11 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,498	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) A crossover course should be little more than a demo of how the unit assembles disassembles and calibrates. If there is some quirk about it then fine go through that as well but basically a CCR is a CCR. Offer a course sure but don't insist on it. Mark Mark, perhaps a poll on the people that did a cross-over course on the rEvo ?? total 3 and a half day paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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20th November 2007, 16:16	#12 (permalink)
Ryan New Member Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Pelagian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: On the edge of the gulf stream! Posts: 74	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Forgive me for straying off topic, but I just did a rEvo crossover with three other Kiss divers. I agree with this model: Quote: This is what I belive will cover the CCR training at most. MCCR, basic ECCR, basic Crossover from MCCR to ECCR Crossover from ECCR to MCCR Sport Depth to Technical Depth Those 5 courses should also cover any "liability". My class was worthwhile because I got to badger Paul. If he weren't there, I'm not sure I'd feel the same way. I passed both exams without reading the andi texts. We didn't do any skills in the water that were new to me. It was determined in the class that I am a terrible dive buddy, but I could have told them that going in... I think that setup/teardown/calibration/revodream procedures could be covered with a 30-45min dvd (like Gordon's Kiss DVD). I agree that a crossover to an ECCR is likely valid because of their different failure modes, but as long as manufacturers produce appropriate documentation for their rebreathers, crossover courses from one MCCR or ECCR to another are redundant. I'm curious to see what will be required when I add the shearwater controller to the revo. In my opinion all that should be required is a dive or two to demonstrate that I can handle ECCR failure modes. If more is required I'll likely rethink that purchase. Another issue is that I have TDI and IANTD instructors coming out of the woodwork here in SOFLA that offer readily available and economical training. Having to import an ANDI instructor is more difficult... __________________ www.ReefPhoto.com 877-453-8927 954-537-0644
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20th November 2007, 17:07	#13 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,998	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Ryan) Forgive me for straying off topic, but I just did a rEvo crossover with three other Kiss divers. I agree with this model: My class was worthwhile because I got to badger Paul. If he weren't there, I'm not sure I'd feel the same way. I passed both exams without reading the andi texts. We didn't do any skills in the water that were new to me. It was determined in the class that I am a terrible dive buddy, but I could have told them that going in... I think that setup/teardown/calibration/revodream procedures could be covered with a 30-45min dvd (like Gordon's Kiss DVD). I agree that a crossover to an ECCR is likely valid because of their different failure modes, but as long as manufacturers produce appropriate documentation for their rebreathers, crossover courses from one MCCR or ECCR to another are redundant. I'm curious to see what will be required when I add the shearwater controller to the revo. In my opinion all that should be required is a dive or two to demonstrate that I can handle ECCR failure modes. If more is required I'll likely rethink that purchase. Another issue is that I have TDI and IANTD instructors coming out of the woodwork here in SOFLA that offer readily available and economical training. Having to import an ANDI instructor is more difficult... Ryan, There are good divers and bad divers just as there are both good and bad instructors... I have seen divers that were "certified" on RBs that had no business diving one and have seen others that were a pleasure to dive with.. By requiring training for each individual rig, the manufacture increases the odds that they would not fall victim from previous poor training.. Also having required xover training allows a review of the diver's skills.. I have seen it more than once that a diver has gotten into bad habits and it gives another chance to correct things.. Not everone will get the same out of a class.. Some will feel xovers are unnecessary but you do need a set of standards to try and meet some minimum level of safety.. its also in my opinion to not be too flexible with regards to experience otherwise the good ole boys network has a chance to enter.. The rEvo training is just getting going, its only been a few months... In time there will be more options available, but you will never have instructors comming out of the woodwork.. Keeping the training selective helps keep control and quality high, and prevents those operating out of the trunk of their car and only teach a few students a year from damaging the market place for those that do it for a living and in general have greater experience.... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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20th November 2007, 20:12	#14 (permalink)
dz3866 zboy Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2005 Location: US California Posts: 147	Re: HammerHead CCR Training I was trained on a kiss (ANDI) but now really like pauls Revo, but not willing to pay for a cross over, maybe a 2hr classroom on the unit and electronics $? it makes no sense to me being trained thru ANDI on one MCCR and have to pay to cross to another MCCR thru ANDI, what is the instructor looking for in the water on the cross over "hey you were able to find the manual add buttons, good job" or "nice job looking at your displays" all in water skills have allready been passed if a diver has an ANDI cert for any MCCR, he should not have to prove himself again to another ANDI instructor, its interesting to that you can buy Pauls Revodream ( or you could in the past, I did) or the hammerhead, your training on these?, you read the instructions.
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20th November 2007, 20:23	#15 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,693	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) Mark, perhaps a poll on the people that did a cross-over course on the rEvo ?? total 3 and a half day paul does this answer your question? Quote: (Originally Posted by Ryan) Forgive me for straying off topic, but I just did a rEvo crossover with three other Kiss divers. I agree with this model: My class was worthwhile because I got to badger Paul. If he weren't there, I'm not sure I'd feel the same way. I passed both exams without reading the andi texts. We didn't do any skills in the water that were new to me. It was determined in the class that I am a terrible dive buddy, but I could have told them that going in... I think that setup/teardown/calibration/revodream procedures could be covered with a 30-45min dvd (like Gordon's Kiss DVD). I agree that a crossover to an ECCR is likely valid because of their different failure modes, but as long as manufacturers produce appropriate documentation for their rebreathers, crossover courses from one MCCR or ECCR to another are redundant. I'm curious to see what will be required when I add the shearwater controller to the revo. In my opinion all that should be required is a dive or two to demonstrate that I can handle ECCR failure modes. If more is required I'll likely rethink that purchase. Another issue is that I have TDI and IANTD instructors coming out of the woodwork here in SOFLA that offer readily available and economical training. Having to import an ANDI instructor is more difficult... And this reinforces my point Quote: (Originally Posted by dz3866) I was trained on a kiss (ANDI) but now really like pauls Revo, but not willing to pay for a cross over, maybe a 2hr classroom on the unit and electronics $? it makes no sense to me being trained thru ANDI on one MCCR and have to pay to cross to another MCCR thru ANDI, what is the instructor looking for in the water on the cross over "hey you were able to find the manual add buttons, good job" or "nice job looking at your displays" all in water skills have allready been passed if a diver has an ANDI cert for any MCCR, he should not have to prove himself again to another ANDI instructor, its interesting to that you can buy Pauls Revodream ( or you could in the past, I did) or the hammerhead, your training on these?, you read the instructions. The only reason I don't dive a rEvo today was the need for training course in Geneva. If it had been in the UK then I might have and i know Dave is now doing the training over here for us. Point is if you could have sold me a unit without training id have baught it and worried about the course later when my diving schedual wasn't so hectic. Which is exactly what i did with the KISS __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System Last edited by Mark Chase : 20th November 2007 at 20:28.
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20th November 2007, 20:39	#16 (permalink)
henckell New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 90	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) The only reason I don't dive a rEvo today was the need for training course in Geneva. Agree totally! This is the only reason a lot of people don't exchange and buy other units. It is slowing down the rebreather manufacturer's market. __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
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20th November 2007, 20:49	#17 (permalink)
diverklondike Just one of the Peasants Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,608	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Gang, I am sure that Kevin will sell lots of units because he has designed along with Golem Gear and excellent unit. With that regardless of who you are you will need to be certified on the unit. Be it full training and or some type of crossover training. Ok... So why have cross over training? I have easily as many hours on HH electronics in combination with many of the components that are being offered as part of the unit. I could easily make try and make the same argument that may have in this thread. Because the MFG says so to ensure that all user have a "consistent" level of knowledge about the unit's operation and maintenance. Along with that I expect that the given training agency will cover some items that are specific to their CCR philosophy. One of the reasons that the MFG chooses to take this approach is to address liability. With that I expect that the "instructor" had better do a bang up job in providing me knowledge and helping me improve/exercise my skills. I also fully expect that he should take my existing background into account in delivering the training to me. When I purchased my new rig from Kevin it was under the agreement of getting the appropriate crossover training since that is what he the MFG requires. This simply means that "if" you are considering a new CCR and it happens to be the HH CCR then you should include the fact that you will need to complete some type of cross over training. If you find a MFG that does not require cross over training and you feel that's a good thing, then include it in your decision making criteria. Dive Safe... Mark
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20th November 2007, 21:00	#18 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,693	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: If you find a MFG that does not require cross over training and you feel that's a good thing, then include it in your decision making criteria. I did ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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20th November 2007, 21:24	#19 (permalink)
henckell New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 90	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Also having required xover training allows a review of the diver's skills.. I have seen it more than once that a diver has gotten into bad habits and it gives another chance to correct things.. Not everone will get the same out of a class.. Some will feel xovers are unnecessary but you do need a set of standards to try and meet some minimum level of safety.. its also in my opinion to not be too flexible with regards to experience otherwise the good ole boys network has a chance to enter.. The rEvo training is just getting going, its only been a few months... In time there will be more options available, but you will never have instructors comming out of the woodwork.. Keeping the training selective helps keep control and quality high, and prevents those operating out of the trunk of their car and only teach a few students a year from damaging the market place for those that do it for a living and in general have greater experience.... Interesting post... First, if you see a lot of people who has "gotten into bad habits", it would actually be more sensible (and economically rewarding for both instructors and training agencies) to demand refresher training every x years to keep your certificate than to demand cross over training between two similar units 1-2 times in a diver's lifetime! There goes the "safety" argument... Second, me being an instructor who "operates out of the trunk of my car" I have difficulties to agree with (or maybe understand) the statement you made about instructor quality. I'd rather go to an instructor who ONLY dives the unit I want training on instead of to an instructor who "offer training" on all rebreathers. Even units that he doesn't own! I think this is in contradiction to your own statements about quality, since I don't believe that someone who "offers training" on 10-15 (or even more!) units will ever get the intimate knowledge of each unit that I do on my "single" unit. There goes the quality argument... Of course someone who has dived a lot of different rebreathers can comment on them but what are their comments based on, really? If it is as easy to become an instructor as to just dive a unit a couple of hours with an "IT friend" then the student's previous experience on a specific unit would actually qualify him to dive a similar unit straight away, since higher requirements always should be put on the instructor... I feel this whole (cross over)training thing is very hard to explain in a logical and honest way. You said that you put a lot of time into writing training material. Well, I don't know anyone who has ever received any material from IANTD, OC or CCR... Then the IANTD courses ought to be cheaper than ANDI, right? __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
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20th November 2007, 21:29	#20 (permalink)
henckell New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 90	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) I just read through the ANDI CCR Training Materials that Joe sent me and I am looking forward to the crossover class How much is the cross over training? If you don't want to say how much you paid, maybe Joe Radomski can answer what the pricetag is? __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
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