CCR Cross Over Training

Dutchy · 26th November 2007, 17:28

Quote:

For now... it's stick to the system if you want to play in the ballpark, like it or not.

I'm wondering do I have to? Will rEvo be limited to ANDI only? I want to be proficient not perfect. I respect Joe's attitude to teaching I just don't agree with it.
I think part of the fun is "mastering rebreathers" (now where did I read those words

) To me that is little things like reducing O2 and diluent usage and mostly reducing the percieved task-load iow enjoying the dive itself.
So if other agencies will teach it it the near future in a form that's more appealing to me then that's great. If not well then I think I'll just do the case modding I had planned anyway for the current box.

paulraymaekers · 26th November 2007, 17:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

I'm wondering do I have to? Will rEvo be limited to ANDI only? I want to be proficient not perfect. I respect Joe's attitude to teaching I just don't agree with it.
I think part of the fun is "mastering rebreathers" (now where did I read those words

) To me that is little things like reducing O2 and diluent usage and mostly reducing the percieved task-load iow enjoying the dive itself.
So if other agencies will teach it it the near future in a form that's more appealing to me then that's great. If not well then I think I'll just do the case modding I had planned anyway for the current box.

The rEvo is not limited to ANDI alone. But at the moment ANDI is the only agency that has everything ready, and ANDI's standards comply with mine.

So it is possible that other agencies will be able to teach the rEvo, but the standards will still be... mine :-)

paul

Dutchy · 26th November 2007, 17:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

The rEvo is not limited to ANDI alone. But at the moment ANDI is the only agency that has everything ready, and ANDI's standards comply with mine.

So it is possible that other agencies will be able to teach the rEvo, but the standards will still be... mine :-)

paul

Meaning what? You're a bit vague here. You're going to stick to the current program or allow for a decent modular program?

paulraymaekers · 26th November 2007, 18:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

Meaning what? You're a bit vague here. You're going to stick to the current program or allow for a decent modular program?

Hi Dutchy, what is 'decent' ?

I make my point very clear that for diving a rEvo a beginner/newbie has to do a full course, and someone who already dives a rebreather must do a cross over course.

A newbie or an already trained sportdiver will not be able to buy a unit without following a course.

paul

decoweenie · 26th November 2007, 18:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

I'm wondering do I have to?

I don't believe Paul is going to change his mind concerning the requirements to dive his unit - which is his right as the manufacturer. We all should respect that...

Your choice are:

Take a cross-over course if you have to dive a rEvo *now*.
Wait and buy a 2nd-hand unit IF you could convince the seller that you don't need a cross-over course (I have done it many times).

There is no need to keep pushing any further than you have done.

Dutchy · 26th November 2007, 18:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

Hi Dutchy, what is 'decent' ?

I make my point very clear that for diving a rEvo a beginner/newbie has to do a full course, and someone who already dives a rebreather must do a cross over course.

A newbie or an already trained sportdiver will not be able to buy a unit without following a course.

paul

For a newbie it's clear...

For a cross-over to me it still looks like its a full course or something like a full-course.

I respect that you are setting the standards. No problem with that. If you had been clear about what your standards are about a crossover for other agencies then we'd not have this hide and seek games.
Further smilies and smart-ass remarks could be avoided and everybody would be living happy ever after.
In the end you set the standards and I eihter buy into them or not. can't be too hard can it?

paulraymaekers · 26th November 2007, 19:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

For a newbie it's clear...

For a cross-over to me it still looks like its a full course or something like a full-course.

I respect that you are setting the standards. No problem with that. If you had been clear about what your standards are about a crossover for other agencies then we'd not have this hide and seek games.
Further smilies and smart-ass remarks could be avoided and everybody would be living happy ever after.
In the end you set the standards and I eihter buy into them or not. can't be too hard can it?

Hi Dutchy, when I'm very serious, you will see no smilies or smart-ass remarks. (see my previous post)

A cross over course, on a 'man to man' basis , for an experienced CCR diver, that can be done in 2.5 days, can never be seen as a full course. One confined session and 4 dives, the standard for a cross over (min 150 minutes in water time), is not a full course at all!

The problem is everybody finds himself an expert and sees it as a "money making industry" for agencies and instructors. I don't see it that way.

For me, the training standards must be there to give me a 'good feeling' , that I sleep well, that I'm not awake at night thinking that one of my clients might die in the next XX hours he/she's diving a rEvo!!

serious regards
paul

Dutchy · 26th November 2007, 19:52

Thanks for something I see as a sincere reply...

esc · 26th November 2007, 20:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

For me, the training standards must be there to give me a 'good feeling' , that I sleep well, that I'm not awake at night thinking that one of my clients might die in the next XX hours he/she's diving a rEvo!!

serious regards
paul

Your client might die any second by doing zillion of other things like walking across the street at wrong time. C'mon, we are adults here. We can decide ourself what is acceptable risk level for ourself in this life (which we do every day while making multiple choices during a day) and which should be in our hands, not some "industry" who wont be responsible anyways no matter what happened to you (and vigorously try to make you write waivers for such too). Which is it? You take responsibility or you want waiver?

Sell it as plumbing parts for any adult wishing to do so or just "parts". Scuba diving with or without rebreather is still not something we need a license in this part of the world so I fail to see why manufacturers are trying to pull it out as "I would not sleep well" kinda BS. If you or any other manufacturer truly is that sensitive/emotionally attached to their clients, I personally think they are in wrong business because face it, people WILL die.

Will they die because of lack of "official c-card", lack of training or just because it was their time to go (heart attack) or perhaps even because part in rebreather failed? Who knows? Having wallet full of C-cards or being expert rebreather diver does not seem to make you less prone to fatal accident according to that PDF, actually opposite looks to be true.

I have done my share of "recreational" training. After OWD I have always thought them to be good value too and so I have gladly paid for them too BUT it was always my choice to do so. Nobody was under water to stop me going past 18m few years ago and I doubt there will be anyone stopping me diving rebreather either, card or no card.

/esc

PS.

Training good. Forced BS bad. IF your training is good, people will pay for it without the need to have policy to do so. That is also only way to see if its worth the value it has printed on the "course fee" section or not dont you agree?

paulraymaekers · 26th November 2007, 20:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by esc)

....so I fail to see why manufacturers are trying to pull it out as "I would not sleep well" kinda BS.

I was clearly speaking about my reasons to apply training standards, and I think I am entitled to have my reasons.

even if you find them BS.

People make choises. You do, I do.
For me, building rebreathers is just a small part of my business. But an attractive part. Why do I do it? It has nothing to do with money, but with 'challenge', engineering, develloping new things, 'creating'. It has to do with friends, meeting people, live my life.

But I also know there are risks. Peoples lifes are involved. So should I stop building rebreathers? Or should I try to minimise the risks?
My choise is the second.
I am 100% persueded that having good training standards will reduce risk for my clients, so I apply them.

paul

26th November 2007, 17:28	#131 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: For now... it's stick to the system if you want to play in the ballpark, like it or not. I'm wondering do I have to? Will rEvo be limited to ANDI only? I want to be proficient not perfect. I respect Joe's attitude to teaching I just don't agree with it. I think part of the fun is "mastering rebreathers" (now where did I read those words ) To me that is little things like reducing O2 and diluent usage and mostly reducing the percieved task-load iow enjoying the dive itself. So if other agencies will teach it it the near future in a form that's more appealing to me then that's great. If not well then I think I'll just do the case modding I had planned anyway for the current box. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

26th November 2007, 17:49	#132 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) I'm wondering do I have to? Will rEvo be limited to ANDI only? I want to be proficient not perfect. I respect Joe's attitude to teaching I just don't agree with it. I think part of the fun is "mastering rebreathers" (now where did I read those words ) To me that is little things like reducing O2 and diluent usage and mostly reducing the percieved task-load iow enjoying the dive itself. So if other agencies will teach it it the near future in a form that's more appealing to me then that's great. If not well then I think I'll just do the case modding I had planned anyway for the current box. The rEvo is not limited to ANDI alone. But at the moment ANDI is the only agency that has everything ready, and ANDI's standards comply with mine. So it is possible that other agencies will be able to teach the rEvo, but the standards will still be... mine :-) paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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26th November 2007, 17:56	#133 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) The rEvo is not limited to ANDI alone. But at the moment ANDI is the only agency that has everything ready, and ANDI's standards comply with mine. So it is possible that other agencies will be able to teach the rEvo, but the standards will still be... mine :-) paul Meaning what? You're a bit vague here. You're going to stick to the current program or allow for a decent modular program? __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

26th November 2007, 18:10	#134 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) Meaning what? You're a bit vague here. You're going to stick to the current program or allow for a decent modular program? Hi Dutchy, what is 'decent' ? I make my point very clear that for diving a rEvo a beginner/newbie has to do a full course, and someone who already dives a rebreather must do a cross over course. A newbie or an already trained sportdiver will not be able to buy a unit without following a course. paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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26th November 2007, 18:33	#135 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) I'm wondering do I have to? I don't believe Paul is going to change his mind concerning the requirements to dive his unit - which is his right as the manufacturer. We all should respect that... Your choice are: Take a cross-over course if you have to dive a rEvo now. Wait and buy a 2nd-hand unit IF you could convince the seller that you don't need a cross-over course (I have done it many times). There is no need to keep pushing any further than you have done.
(Offline)

26th November 2007, 18:45	#136 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) Hi Dutchy, what is 'decent' ? I make my point very clear that for diving a rEvo a beginner/newbie has to do a full course, and someone who already dives a rebreather must do a cross over course. A newbie or an already trained sportdiver will not be able to buy a unit without following a course. paul For a newbie it's clear... For a cross-over to me it still looks like its a full course or something like a full-course. I respect that you are setting the standards. No problem with that. If you had been clear about what your standards are about a crossover for other agencies then we'd not have this hide and seek games. Further smilies and smart-ass remarks could be avoided and everybody would be living happy ever after. In the end you set the standards and I eihter buy into them or not. can't be too hard can it? __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

26th November 2007, 19:36	#137 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) For a newbie it's clear... For a cross-over to me it still looks like its a full course or something like a full-course. I respect that you are setting the standards. No problem with that. If you had been clear about what your standards are about a crossover for other agencies then we'd not have this hide and seek games. Further smilies and smart-ass remarks could be avoided and everybody would be living happy ever after. In the end you set the standards and I eihter buy into them or not. can't be too hard can it? Hi Dutchy, when I'm very serious, you will see no smilies or smart-ass remarks. (see my previous post) A cross over course, on a 'man to man' basis , for an experienced CCR diver, that can be done in 2.5 days, can never be seen as a full course. One confined session and 4 dives, the standard for a cross over (min 150 minutes in water time), is not a full course at all! The problem is everybody finds himself an expert and sees it as a "money making industry" for agencies and instructors. I don't see it that way. For me, the training standards must be there to give me a 'good feeling' , that I sleep well, that I'm not awake at night thinking that one of my clients might die in the next XX hours he/she's diving a rEvo!! serious regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials... Last edited by paulraymaekers : 26th November 2007 at 19:39.
(Offline)

26th November 2007, 19:52	#138 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Thanks for something I see as a sincere reply... __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

26th November 2007, 20:20	#139 (permalink)
esc New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 50	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) For me, the training standards must be there to give me a 'good feeling' , that I sleep well, that I'm not awake at night thinking that one of my clients might die in the next XX hours he/she's diving a rEvo!! serious regards paul Your client might die any second by doing zillion of other things like walking across the street at wrong time. C'mon, we are adults here. We can decide ourself what is acceptable risk level for ourself in this life (which we do every day while making multiple choices during a day) and which should be in our hands, not some "industry" who wont be responsible anyways no matter what happened to you (and vigorously try to make you write waivers for such too). Which is it? You take responsibility or you want waiver? Sell it as plumbing parts for any adult wishing to do so or just "parts". Scuba diving with or without rebreather is still not something we need a license in this part of the world so I fail to see why manufacturers are trying to pull it out as "I would not sleep well" kinda BS. If you or any other manufacturer truly is that sensitive/emotionally attached to their clients, I personally think they are in wrong business because face it, people WILL die. Will they die because of lack of "official c-card", lack of training or just because it was their time to go (heart attack) or perhaps even because part in rebreather failed? Who knows? Having wallet full of C-cards or being expert rebreather diver does not seem to make you less prone to fatal accident according to that PDF, actually opposite looks to be true. I have done my share of "recreational" training. After OWD I have always thought them to be good value too and so I have gladly paid for them too BUT it was always my choice to do so. Nobody was under water to stop me going past 18m few years ago and I doubt there will be anyone stopping me diving rebreather either, card or no card. /esc PS. Training good. Forced BS bad. IF your training is good, people will pay for it without the need to have policy to do so. That is also only way to see if its worth the value it has printed on the "course fee" section or not dont you agree?
(Offline)

26th November 2007, 20:50	#140 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by esc) ....so I fail to see why manufacturers are trying to pull it out as "I would not sleep well" kinda BS. I was clearly speaking about my reasons to apply training standards, and I think I am entitled to have my reasons. even if you find them BS. People make choises. You do, I do. For me, building rebreathers is just a small part of my business. But an attractive part. Why do I do it? It has nothing to do with money, but with 'challenge', engineering, develloping new things, 'creating'. It has to do with friends, meeting people, live my life. But I also know there are risks. Peoples lifes are involved. So should I stop building rebreathers? Or should I try to minimise the risks? My choise is the second. I am 100% persueded that having good training standards will reduce risk for my clients, so I apply them. paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Offline)

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