CCR Cross Over Training

peter · 25th November 2007, 21:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

hi stephan, not nice if this is ment to 'stirr up' a bit. you KNOW since long that Dave was among the 32 beta-divers from 2006, paul

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/revo-...highlight=revo

**Dave Sutton** · 26th November 2007, 00:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Dave, I appreciate that, as an instructor, you freely admit when you can't teach a mandatory student anything about the diving, just about the unit itself. Same with sticking to the standards since they're there. In that case, it sucks as much for you having your hands tied as it does for the student having to take another damn class.

Who was your instructor on the user class? Did you come to Europe to take it?
Or did you get the unit without having to take a user class/crossover?

It's not that there's nothing to *teach* someone like Pete in a crossover, the point is that we are peers, dive together, and I already know his skill set is more than adequate. When you are working with an EXPERT diver during a crossover, all you ought to be oing is fine tuning the basic skills and teaching the nuts and bolts of the unit. It's always god to review and do drills, and that's as true for the instructor as for the student. Proficiency is maintained, not gained. It's a perishable product. Pilots do recurrent training, so why not rebreather divers? In this case it's even more amusing... Pete is a professional pilot and trains at my training center for the business jet we both fly every six months. I'm sure that he would agree with all of the above. And I only picked him as an example of someone on the far-right of the proficiency curve of people who are doing crossovers. Nobody would be easier to work with. Most would need more.

Paul answered your other question directly, and I assume it's rhetorical because you knew the answer already. You also ought to ask why the first rigs of any type (such as the Hammerhead that was delivered to a certain moderator here) are done so without a user course. Am I the only one that noticed, or is this question only directed at me when I work with a manufacturer as a beta diver, and not when onme of your fellow administrators does the same thing (not that there would be a double standard for administrators V/S little people like me, in any way..

Suggest you don't pull my tail on this one). To make it clear, I have no objection to carefully selected people doing test work, and neither should anyone else. There will always be exceptions when a new rig is first put into the field. That's just the way it is. They need to be tested somehow, and it's the manufacturers call. I'm frankly dissapointed in your question, which is an obvious effort to stir trouble out of the soup.. I'm not impressed.

Back to the *germane* part of the discussion: I'm all in favor of modular courses, and I am sure that in the end that's what it will end up as. 20 years from now there will be no way in hell for every rig to get it's own week. For now... it's stick to the system if you want to play in the ballpark, like it or not.

Dave

fredrik · 26th November 2007, 05:47

So how will there be a change in 20 years from now if we just...

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

...stick to the system if you want to play in the ballpark, like it or not.

Dave

Drmike · 26th November 2007, 06:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

Ok, let's now hear from the people that actually did a cross-over training from one unit to another : how do they feel about it: did they effectively learn something, do they have the feeling the cross training made them feel comfortable on the unit, much faster then if they would have tried it from the book??

Ive done a few cross over courses - heres my take on them and on the one Ive got coming up.

Critical things I need to learn as an existing Rebreather diver:-

1) Where the manual add buttons are
2) How to prep the unit (pack scrubber, set controller etc)
3) How to strip down and maintain the unit
4) How to pre dive test
5) Unit specific design weaknesses and how the user has to accommodate for them
6) Little unit specific tricks of the trade

Trouble is when your doing a cross over course MOST of the time is spent doing stuff you already know and know well.

1) Running SCR? big deal all I need to know is where is the manual add where is the display
2) Bail out drills? - Give me a break! not unit specific

IMHO on a cross over course YOU SHOULD LEARN ONLY UNIT SPECIFIC THINGS and not RE DO basic skills you know in many cases as well if not better than the instructor

When I did my MK15.5 cross over I combined it with CCR trimix (exped style) so I learnt a lot more than just cross over,

When I did Boris cross over it was 1st time diving in cold (sub 16degC) water so use of thick gloves and frozen hands meant there was things to learn (such as how to shoot a bag, how to manually inject when your hands are solid frozen blocks of ice)

I treated both courses (especially boris one) as a holiday, as some fun dives and as a chance to dive with someone who I respect and whos company I enjoyed,,,thought of it as paying to go on a dive holiday that i get a cert at the end of.

IMHO the people who go into a cross over course with good basic skills SHOULDN'T be subsidizing those that don't by having to WASTE time repeating well engrained skills and as a consequence NOT have enough time to really learn what we NEED to learn which is the UNIT specific stuff.

We all know instructors who have been diving less time than we have - do you really want to pay for that instructor to review your basic skills?

The upcoming sentinel cross over course:- I want to dive the unit and if the mnf says I have to do this or that then I have no choice. No point bitching about it - ill just get on and do it an dmake the most of it. BUT I will make sure theres enough time (amongst all the unnecessary and unproductive basic skills demos) to learn stuff I really need to learn the unit specific stuff such as maintenance and trouble shooting.

Bottom line: Going over basic skills isnt a bad thing PROVIDED the unit specific stuff is still taught and enough time is still left over to teach that unit specific stuff fully.

But at the end of the day I think its a good idea to do a good few dives on the unit with the instructor during your course - swimming around in cirlces is boring so may as well do some drills at the same time........ thats a much better way of looking at it

***caveseeker7*** · 26th November 2007, 06:47

Look at the subject line of this thread: CCR Cross Over Training
So I believe my question was justified. I know it was mentioned before, but the details evaded me, and I just didn't feel like searching the entire website for it. I'm not asking it to stir up trouble, it's the subject we're talking about. And I'm not here to impress anyone.

Paul, that unit didn't come to the US till April 07, I saw it and the ANDI textbook, whichever version it was, for sale at the BOOT 07, not 2006. I know it's your choice, and frankly I don't care, just seems odd to require training/crossover from one customer and not the next. Which is the subject of this thread.

Little different with Joe and the Hammerhead. Joe has written previous Hammerhead manuals for the manufacturer, was hired to write the one for the HH CCR, too. I'd call that having a long working relationship with the manufacturer. In addition, Joe's the training director for ANDI and writes many of the training manuals for the agency. The Hammerhead CCR Training Manual will be one of them. Last but not least, he went to the manufacturer to pick up the unit, and I'm reasonably sure Kevin gave him a rundown on it. Little different from shipping a rig around the world after it has reached production, course materials have been sold and at least one instructor established.

Thanks for the link, Peter, made it much easier to find the post I was looking for.
Dave, you wrote:

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

I was taught by the same guy who taught me to dive the other 20+ types of rebreathers I have dived...

I gather that means you haven't taken any crossovers lately?
Seems like some kids get to break the rules, play in the park and still become the teams trainer.

I'm soooo impressed!

Quote:

Pilots do recurrent training, so why not rebreather divers?

Simple, because we're divers, not pilots. And we, unlike you, don't do it commercially!
You're the instructor here, Dave, maybe you should have to go back every 6 month for a refresher course on the units you're already certified on. I know that how Lufthansa pilots do it.

I'm not aware that private pilots of gliders have to do that, though. You know, the ones without pistons (solenoids) and autopilot (electronic controls). Nor do I remember friends who dive little 152 or 172 Cessnas to go into simulators every 6 months to keep their status as airline pilots do.

I don't fly, so I don't know the details, but I don't remember them mentioning that sort of recurrent training, anyway.

Why aren't cooks, photographers, plumbers required take recurrent training?
Do they send downhill skiers back to ski school recurrently?
Do they require ski school before they sell you skis, or are you free to break your neck without training?

Maybe there's a difference between some guy skiing down a hill and a guy diving along a reef ... there certainly is one to a guy piloting 300+ passengers and few thousand pounds of kerosene or a guy that in addition to the thousands of pounds of jet fuel hauls around a few thousand more of high explosive or nuclear payload.

By all means, train people that carry that much responsibility well, and keep an eye on them.

But don't throw me and my rebreather in the same bin.
If I screw up, I'll hurt, damage or kill myself, not dozends, hundreds or thousands of other people.
And I can do that crossing a street, riding a bicycle, any number of ways any number of times any given day.

paulraymaekers · 26th November 2007, 09:06

to drmike:

thanks for your reply: you can imagine what I ment when I spoke about people that dived 5 or more rebreathers before the rEvo, difficult to compare it with newbe's
I am sure your in water skills outperform mine, (would love to have so much time to dive :-)

to stefan: a bit disapointing: do not try to dragg people into 'forumfights': my comments on these are clear, as I also explained to different RBW administrators. From the beginning dave was not a 'customer', and he got his 'FULL' intencive course from me and joe in september this year. The participants on that course can state that.

back to topic

paul

Drmike · 26th November 2007, 09:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

I am sure your in water skills outperform mine,

oh I dont know about that! - my diving technique is a bit 'agricultural' in nature - as in not very prity to look at but it kinda works

Like I said I dont mind doing skills during 'familiarisation' dives on the new units - swimming around in cricles can get a bit boring afer a while

Plus at the end of the day I respect the mnf wishes. Its his product, his reputation, the prducts reputation, his income, his staffs jobs thats at risk if people die on their units - he has every right to dictate training requirements - if people dont like it then they dont have to buy one of his units...

***caveseeker7*** · 26th November 2007, 10:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

to stehan: a bit disapointing: do not try to dragg people into 'forumfights'

First, it's Stefan.
Second, I didn't drag people in, both you and Dave joined the thread before my inquiry.
Third, cross over training is the subject, so I was on topic.

I guess I could have asked Mike about the hours he had on his MK15.5 before doing trimix dives vs the agencies' and manufacturer' standards and maybe I would have had the same results, that they're not necessarily evenly applied. But mix and OC/CC mix crossovers aren't the subject here, unit to unit crossovers are.

There was nothing wrong with the question, it's asked and answered, that's all there is to it.

I'm not a manufacturer, I don't set or apply the rules one way or another, and I certainly haven't skipped any crossover yet. I'm not impressing one and disappointing the other because I ask an uncomfortable question? Stop bitching at me, will you, I haven't placed myself above the rules, I didn't make them in the first place.

Drmike · 26th November 2007, 10:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

I guess I could have asked Mike about the hours he had on his MK15.5 before doing trimix dives vs the agencies' and manufacturer' standards .

FWIW I was already normoxic ccr trained - dont know if I broke any standards - if I did it wasnt deliberate. I think its a goiod thing if theres some flexibility allowed in the standards for the instructor to vary his teaching to suit the students ability wishes or needs

***caveseeker7*** · 26th November 2007, 10:19

Didn't want to pick on you, just came to mind since you mentioned it earlier.

25th November 2007, 21:52	#111 (permalink)
peter New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Göteborg/Sweden Posts: 48	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) hi stephan, not nice if this is ment to 'stirr up' a bit. you KNOW since long that Dave was among the 32 beta-divers from 2006, paul http://www.rebreatherworld.com/revo-...highlight=revo __________________ Peter
(Online)

26th November 2007, 00:48	#112 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Dave, I appreciate that, as an instructor, you freely admit when you can't teach a mandatory student anything about the diving, just about the unit itself. Same with sticking to the standards since they're there. In that case, it sucks as much for you having your hands tied as it does for the student having to take another damn class. Who was your instructor on the user class? Did you come to Europe to take it? Or did you get the unit without having to take a user class/crossover? It's not that there's nothing to teach someone like Pete in a crossover, the point is that we are peers, dive together, and I already know his skill set is more than adequate. When you are working with an EXPERT diver during a crossover, all you ought to be oing is fine tuning the basic skills and teaching the nuts and bolts of the unit. It's always god to review and do drills, and that's as true for the instructor as for the student. Proficiency is maintained, not gained. It's a perishable product. Pilots do recurrent training, so why not rebreather divers? In this case it's even more amusing... Pete is a professional pilot and trains at my training center for the business jet we both fly every six months. I'm sure that he would agree with all of the above. And I only picked him as an example of someone on the far-right of the proficiency curve of people who are doing crossovers. Nobody would be easier to work with. Most would need more. Paul answered your other question directly, and I assume it's rhetorical because you knew the answer already. You also ought to ask why the first rigs of any type (such as the Hammerhead that was delivered to a certain moderator here) are done so without a user course. Am I the only one that noticed, or is this question only directed at me when I work with a manufacturer as a beta diver, and not when onme of your fellow administrators does the same thing (not that there would be a double standard for administrators V/S little people like me, in any way.. Suggest you don't pull my tail on this one). To make it clear, I have no objection to carefully selected people doing test work, and neither should anyone else. There will always be exceptions when a new rig is first put into the field. That's just the way it is. They need to be tested somehow, and it's the manufacturers call. I'm frankly dissapointed in your question, which is an obvious effort to stir trouble out of the soup.. I'm not impressed. Back to the germane part of the discussion: I'm all in favor of modular courses, and I am sure that in the end that's what it will end up as. 20 years from now there will be no way in hell for every rig to get it's own week. For now... it's stick to the system if you want to play in the ballpark, like it or not. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 26th November 2007 at 05:01.
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26th November 2007, 05:47	#113 (permalink)
fredrik Rekodeko. Sweden Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 190	Re: CCR Cross Over Training So how will there be a change in 20 years from now if we just... Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) ...stick to the system if you want to play in the ballpark, like it or not. Dave __________________ Fredrik Rekodeko, Sweden http://www.rekodeko.se
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26th November 2007, 06:43	#114 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) Ok, let's now hear from the people that actually did a cross-over training from one unit to another : how do they feel about it: did they effectively learn something, do they have the feeling the cross training made them feel comfortable on the unit, much faster then if they would have tried it from the book?? Ive done a few cross over courses - heres my take on them and on the one Ive got coming up. Critical things I need to learn as an existing Rebreather diver:- 1) Where the manual add buttons are 2) How to prep the unit (pack scrubber, set controller etc) 3) How to strip down and maintain the unit 4) How to pre dive test 5) Unit specific design weaknesses and how the user has to accommodate for them 6) Little unit specific tricks of the trade Trouble is when your doing a cross over course MOST of the time is spent doing stuff you already know and know well. 1) Running SCR? big deal all I need to know is where is the manual add where is the display 2) Bail out drills? - Give me a break! not unit specific IMHO on a cross over course YOU SHOULD LEARN ONLY UNIT SPECIFIC THINGS and not RE DO basic skills you know in many cases as well if not better than the instructor When I did my MK15.5 cross over I combined it with CCR trimix (exped style) so I learnt a lot more than just cross over, When I did Boris cross over it was 1st time diving in cold (sub 16degC) water so use of thick gloves and frozen hands meant there was things to learn (such as how to shoot a bag, how to manually inject when your hands are solid frozen blocks of ice) I treated both courses (especially boris one) as a holiday, as some fun dives and as a chance to dive with someone who I respect and whos company I enjoyed,,,thought of it as paying to go on a dive holiday that i get a cert at the end of. IMHO the people who go into a cross over course with good basic skills SHOULDN'T be subsidizing those that don't by having to WASTE time repeating well engrained skills and as a consequence NOT have enough time to really learn what we NEED to learn which is the UNIT specific stuff. We all know instructors who have been diving less time than we have - do you really want to pay for that instructor to review your basic skills? The upcoming sentinel cross over course:- I want to dive the unit and if the mnf says I have to do this or that then I have no choice. No point bitching about it - ill just get on and do it an dmake the most of it. BUT I will make sure theres enough time (amongst all the unnecessary and unproductive basic skills demos) to learn stuff I really need to learn the unit specific stuff such as maintenance and trouble shooting. Bottom line: Going over basic skills isnt a bad thing PROVIDED the unit specific stuff is still taught and enough time is still left over to teach that unit specific stuff fully. But at the end of the day I think its a good idea to do a good few dives on the unit with the instructor during your course - swimming around in cirlces is boring so may as well do some drills at the same time........ thats a much better way of looking at it __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 26th November 2007 at 06:53.
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26th November 2007, 06:47	#115 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Look at the subject line of this thread: CCR Cross Over Training So I believe my question was justified. I know it was mentioned before, but the details evaded me, and I just didn't feel like searching the entire website for it. I'm not asking it to stir up trouble, it's the subject we're talking about. And I'm not here to impress anyone. Paul, that unit didn't come to the US till April 07, I saw it and the ANDI textbook, whichever version it was, for sale at the BOOT 07, not 2006. I know it's your choice, and frankly I don't care, just seems odd to require training/crossover from one customer and not the next. Which is the subject of this thread. Little different with Joe and the Hammerhead. Joe has written previous Hammerhead manuals for the manufacturer, was hired to write the one for the HH CCR, too. I'd call that having a long working relationship with the manufacturer. In addition, Joe's the training director for ANDI and writes many of the training manuals for the agency. The Hammerhead CCR Training Manual will be one of them. Last but not least, he went to the manufacturer to pick up the unit, and I'm reasonably sure Kevin gave him a rundown on it. Little different from shipping a rig around the world after it has reached production, course materials have been sold and at least one instructor established. Thanks for the link, Peter, made it much easier to find the post I was looking for. Dave, you wrote: Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) I was taught by the same guy who taught me to dive the other 20+ types of rebreathers I have dived... I gather that means you haven't taken any crossovers lately? Seems like some kids get to break the rules, play in the park and still become the teams trainer. I'm soooo impressed! Quote: Pilots do recurrent training, so why not rebreather divers? Simple, because we're divers, not pilots. And we, unlike you, don't do it commercially! You're the instructor here, Dave, maybe you should have to go back every 6 month for a refresher course on the units you're already certified on. I know that how Lufthansa pilots do it. I'm not aware that private pilots of gliders have to do that, though. You know, the ones without pistons (solenoids) and autopilot (electronic controls). Nor do I remember friends who dive little 152 or 172 Cessnas to go into simulators every 6 months to keep their status as airline pilots do. I don't fly, so I don't know the details, but I don't remember them mentioning that sort of recurrent training, anyway. Why aren't cooks, photographers, plumbers required take recurrent training? Do they send downhill skiers back to ski school recurrently? Do they require ski school before they sell you skis, or are you free to break your neck without training? Maybe there's a difference between some guy skiing down a hill and a guy diving along a reef ... there certainly is one to a guy piloting 300+ passengers and few thousand pounds of kerosene or a guy that in addition to the thousands of pounds of jet fuel hauls around a few thousand more of high explosive or nuclear payload. By all means, train people that carry that much responsibility well, and keep an eye on them. But don't throw me and my rebreather in the same bin. If I screw up, I'll hurt, damage or kill myself, not dozends, hundreds or thousands of other people. And I can do that crossing a street, riding a bicycle, any number of ways any number of times any given day. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 26th November 2007 at 06:50.
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26th November 2007, 09:06	#116 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training to drmike: thanks for your reply: you can imagine what I ment when I spoke about people that dived 5 or more rebreathers before the rEvo, difficult to compare it with newbe's I am sure your in water skills outperform mine, (would love to have so much time to dive :-) to stefan: a bit disapointing: do not try to dragg people into 'forumfights': my comments on these are clear, as I also explained to different RBW administrators. From the beginning dave was not a 'customer', and he got his 'FULL' intencive course from me and joe in september this year. The participants on that course can state that. back to topic paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials... Last edited by paulraymaekers : 26th November 2007 at 10:15. Reason: spelling
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26th November 2007, 09:21	#117 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) I am sure your in water skills outperform mine, oh I dont know about that! - my diving technique is a bit 'agricultural' in nature - as in not very prity to look at but it kinda works Like I said I dont mind doing skills during 'familiarisation' dives on the new units - swimming around in cricles can get a bit boring afer a while Plus at the end of the day I respect the mnf wishes. Its his product, his reputation, the prducts reputation, his income, his staffs jobs thats at risk if people die on their units - he has every right to dictate training requirements - if people dont like it then they dont have to buy one of his units... __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

26th November 2007, 10:00	#118 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) to stehan: a bit disapointing: do not try to dragg people into 'forumfights' First, it's Stefan. Second, I didn't drag people in, both you and Dave joined the thread before my inquiry. Third, cross over training is the subject, so I was on topic. I guess I could have asked Mike about the hours he had on his MK15.5 before doing trimix dives vs the agencies' and manufacturer' standards and maybe I would have had the same results, that they're not necessarily evenly applied. But mix and OC/CC mix crossovers aren't the subject here, unit to unit crossovers are. There was nothing wrong with the question, it's asked and answered, that's all there is to it. I'm not a manufacturer, I don't set or apply the rules one way or another, and I certainly haven't skipped any crossover yet. I'm not impressing one and disappointing the other because I ask an uncomfortable question? Stop bitching at me, will you, I haven't placed myself above the rules, I didn't make them in the first place. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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26th November 2007, 10:06	#119 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) I guess I could have asked Mike about the hours he had on his MK15.5 before doing trimix dives vs the agencies' and manufacturer' standards . FWIW I was already normoxic ccr trained - dont know if I broke any standards - if I did it wasnt deliberate. I think its a goiod thing if theres some flexibility allowed in the standards for the instructor to vary his teaching to suit the students ability wishes or needs __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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26th November 2007, 10:19	#120 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Didn't want to pick on you, just came to mind since you mentioned it earlier. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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