CCR Cross Over Training

paulraymaekers · 25th November 2007, 10:08

Ok, let's now hear from the people that actually did a cross-over training from one unit to another : how do they feel about it: did they effectively learn something, do they have the feeling the cross training made them feel comfortable on the unit, much faster then if they would have tried it from the book??

the last months in the states I had 8 cross-divers, my impression is that their feeling was the training got them further and faster than if they would have done it on their own.
people who dived 5 different units before will ofcourse move faster than people that have the rEvo as their second unit.

let's hear!

paul

Dutchy · 25th November 2007, 11:01

For obvious reasons when you do, please add wether you just intend to dive the unit or wether you were cross-overed in order to start teaching the unit yourself.

fredrik · 25th November 2007, 11:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

do they have the feeling the cross training made them feel comfortable on the unit, much faster then if they would have tried it from the book??

paul

Probably they had the feeling that the Cross Tr made them feel comfortable much faster, but we will never know because they had no chans to try it out any other way.

I am also aware of people that have been forced Cross Training just to figure out that they knew more or equal than the instuctor.

Also I am not negative to that there is a course for those who is interested in one but they should not be forced to do one.

Some people also learn better from learning in their own speed, not the instructors or the co-students, we are all induvidulas and adults with different needs and should be able to choose ourself.

Instead of specific unit classes maybe the basic courses should be longer.

***caveseeker7*** · 25th November 2007, 11:58

Oh, I'll be the first to admit that I did learn quite a few things in the ANDI class for the Sport Kiss, after having done the TDI for the PRISM. Nevertheless, quite some of it was the same, ANDI tends to go more into depth with a lot of subjects.

I'm also quite sure had I taken the required classes in the opposite order I would think very different about it. TDI didn't have a text book for the unit, actually didn't have an own textbook at all. Bozanic's "Mastering Rebreather" was used, which I read cover to cover more than once already. The rest were loose sheets of paper from the instructor that, from what I gather, differ from one to the next.

The one thing I can think of where a demo by the instructor helped a lot was filling the radial scrubber correctly. But take a whole crossover class for that? Seems asking a bit much, IMHO. Honestly believe a well made DVD could have taken care of that.

And for the next CCR I'll have to go through all of it again, have to study for yet another written test, memorizing stuff that really doesn't matter, paying through my nose for it again.

Gets old after a while.

caver99 · 25th November 2007, 12:39

---------
So: SCR, eCCR, mCCR, He Rebreather. That ought to be it.
__________________
Cheers
Stefan

--------

yes this is the right way. And in fact this is what Protec/CMAS (so do I) teaches for long time already.

Cheers
Martin

caver99 · 25th November 2007, 12:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik)

Also I am not negative to that there is a course for those who is interested in one but they should not be forced to do one.

Some people also learn better from learning in their own speed, not the instructors or the co-students, we are all induvidulas and adults with different needs and should be able to choose ourself.

Instead of specific unit classes maybe the basic courses should be longer.

Absolutly correct, nothing to add. I completely agree with that.
It should be a personal choice of an allready trained Rebreather diver how he wants to adapt the new toy.

Martin

CCR-Wrecker · 25th November 2007, 13:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

Ok, let's now hear from the people that actually did a cross-over training from one unit to another : how do they feel about it: did they effectively learn something, do they have the feeling the cross training made them feel comfortable on the unit, much faster then if they would have tried it from the book??

the last months in the states I had 8 cross-divers, my impression is that their feeling was the training got them further and faster than if they would have done it on their own.
people who dived 5 different units before will ofcourse move faster than people that have the rEvo as their second unit.

let's hear!

paul

Well I can finally paritcipate in this discussion! I have been diving my KISS on and off since July. I finished my crossover yesterday

I won't go as far as to say I gained nothing from the crossover. 2 days with an instructor of the quality of Andrew Driver, you'd have to be brain dead NOT to gleem all kinds of interesting tidbits!

I think the crossover should be setup in a way that allows the instructor to evaluate the diver and tailor the course to fit his/her needs.
Translation: No minimum requirements as far as time u/w or number of dives.
If we trust the instructor to teach us, surely he can do the evaluation.
MVHO

Regards,
Andy

**Dave Sutton** · 25th November 2007, 13:51

Nice Pink Floyd Quote...

. I'll finish it: "You're nearly a laugh, but you're really a cry..." from Animals.

Flying pigs, and all.....

Back to Rebreather's...

Interesting discussion. Two brains:

Right Brain: I can build 'em, study 'em, and dive 'em "all by myself"... and hate being told what to do. You can take any rig, toss it on my bench, and in a day I'd have 99% of it all figured out.

Left Brain: I taught the rEvo class under observation with Paul Raymaekers and Joe Radomski (talk about being nder the microscope) to become qualified as an ANDI rEvo intructor, and the synergy of having someone else there exchanging tips made it a week of learning for me as well as for the others in the class. There is no "bad' training, assuming that the guy doing the instruction actually knows what he's doing. Just doing the drills repeatedly was worth the effort. Yeah, we all *ought* do do drills now and then, but... unless you have dives dedicated to training, it does not get done. Just demonstrating the drills sharpened me up a lot. And that's after doing, oh... dunno: let's just say lots of diving all season. I felt better after the course.

So... where in the middle is the right way?

Bottom line: It needs to based on some set of assumptions of the calibre of the guys expected to be trained. There are always going to be slow learners, and experts being qualified on a new piece of hardware. Too rigid and the fast learners think it sucks. Too flexable and you KNOW that some instructors are gonna mail order card for their buddies. It's just how it is.

As an instructor, I would appreciate the flexability of doing crossovers according to my assessment of the client. Example: Big Pete Piemonte is a diver who dove the Doria with me this year. He's one of the most experienced rebreather divers I know. He's been diving a CK for years, and has done (hundreds?) of 250-300 foot open ocean, north atlantic wreck dives with it. There's zero I can teach him about diving rebreathers. He's just bought a rEvo, and I'm going to do his crossover. I *could* do it in a half day at the LDSOH doing a teardown, and two dives in open water. Since I work to ANDI standards, I will not be able to use my discretion to do this. I'm not going to buck the system, as I think that ANDI has a superb safety record and is by FAR the most diligent agency I've dealt with. On the other hand... it's painful to not be able to do "what it takes". In flying... I would be able to check him out "to proficiency" no matter how long or short it took. That's something we as an industry ought to look at.

Dave

***caveseeker7*** · 25th November 2007, 20:32

Dave, I appreciate that, as an instructor, you freely admit when you can't teach a mandatory student anything about the diving, just about the unit itself. Same with sticking to the standards since they're there. In that case, it sucks as much for you having your hands tied as it does for the student having to take another damn class.

Who was your instructor on the user class? Did you come to Europe to take it?
Or did you get the unit without having to take a user class/crossover?

paulraymaekers · 25th November 2007, 21:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Dave, I appreciate that, as an instructor, you freely admit when you can't teach a mandatory student anything about the diving, just about the unit itself. Same with sticking to the standards since they're there. In that case, it sucks as much for you having your hands tied as it does for the student having to take another damn class.

Who was your instructor on the user class? Did you come to Europe to take it?
Or did you get the unit without having to take a user class/crossover?

hi stephan, not nice if this is ment to 'stirr up' a bit. you KNOW since long that Dave was among the 32 beta-divers from 2006, where we had agreements, that date from the time before there was an official course on the unit.
The official course only started the 1ste of jan 2007.
this has been debated intencively on RBW. If you do not know, do a search;

regards
paul

25th November 2007, 10:08	#101 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Ok, let's now hear from the people that actually did a cross-over training from one unit to another : how do they feel about it: did they effectively learn something, do they have the feeling the cross training made them feel comfortable on the unit, much faster then if they would have tried it from the book?? the last months in the states I had 8 cross-divers, my impression is that their feeling was the training got them further and faster than if they would have done it on their own. people who dived 5 different units before will ofcourse move faster than people that have the rEvo as their second unit. let's hear! paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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25th November 2007, 11:01	#102 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 844	Re: CCR Cross Over Training For obvious reasons when you do, please add wether you just intend to dive the unit or wether you were cross-overed in order to start teaching the unit yourself. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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25th November 2007, 11:56	#103 (permalink)
fredrik Rekodeko. Sweden Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 190	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) do they have the feeling the cross training made them feel comfortable on the unit, much faster then if they would have tried it from the book?? paul Probably they had the feeling that the Cross Tr made them feel comfortable much faster, but we will never know because they had no chans to try it out any other way. I am also aware of people that have been forced Cross Training just to figure out that they knew more or equal than the instuctor. Also I am not negative to that there is a course for those who is interested in one but they should not be forced to do one. Some people also learn better from learning in their own speed, not the instructors or the co-students, we are all induvidulas and adults with different needs and should be able to choose ourself. Instead of specific unit classes maybe the basic courses should be longer. __________________ Fredrik Rekodeko, Sweden http://www.rekodeko.se
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25th November 2007, 11:58	#104 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Oh, I'll be the first to admit that I did learn quite a few things in the ANDI class for the Sport Kiss, after having done the TDI for the PRISM. Nevertheless, quite some of it was the same, ANDI tends to go more into depth with a lot of subjects. I'm also quite sure had I taken the required classes in the opposite order I would think very different about it. TDI didn't have a text book for the unit, actually didn't have an own textbook at all. Bozanic's "Mastering Rebreather" was used, which I read cover to cover more than once already. The rest were loose sheets of paper from the instructor that, from what I gather, differ from one to the next. The one thing I can think of where a demo by the instructor helped a lot was filling the radial scrubber correctly. But take a whole crossover class for that? Seems asking a bit much, IMHO. Honestly believe a well made DVD could have taken care of that. And for the next CCR I'll have to go through all of it again, have to study for yet another written test, memorizing stuff that really doesn't matter, paying through my nose for it again. Gets old after a while. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

25th November 2007, 12:39	#105 (permalink)
caver99 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Philippines, Germany Posts: 62	Re: CCR Cross Over Training --------- So: SCR, eCCR, mCCR, He Rebreather. That ought to be it. __________________ Cheers Stefan -------- yes this is the right way. And in fact this is what Protec/CMAS (so do I) teaches for long time already. Cheers Martin __________________ www.tecme.de
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25th November 2007, 12:45	#106 (permalink)
caver99 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Azimuth Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Philippines, Germany Posts: 62	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik) Also I am not negative to that there is a course for those who is interested in one but they should not be forced to do one. Some people also learn better from learning in their own speed, not the instructors or the co-students, we are all induvidulas and adults with different needs and should be able to choose ourself. Instead of specific unit classes maybe the basic courses should be longer. Absolutly correct, nothing to add. I completely agree with that. It should be a personal choice of an allready trained Rebreather diver how he wants to adapt the new toy. Martin __________________ www.tecme.de
(Offline)

25th November 2007, 13:11	#107 (permalink)
CCR-Wrecker aka NY-Andy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Posts: 228	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) Ok, let's now hear from the people that actually did a cross-over training from one unit to another : how do they feel about it: did they effectively learn something, do they have the feeling the cross training made them feel comfortable on the unit, much faster then if they would have tried it from the book?? the last months in the states I had 8 cross-divers, my impression is that their feeling was the training got them further and faster than if they would have done it on their own. people who dived 5 different units before will ofcourse move faster than people that have the rEvo as their second unit. let's hear! paul Well I can finally paritcipate in this discussion! I have been diving my KISS on and off since July. I finished my crossover yesterday I won't go as far as to say I gained nothing from the crossover. 2 days with an instructor of the quality of Andrew Driver, you'd have to be brain dead NOT to gleem all kinds of interesting tidbits! I think the crossover should be setup in a way that allows the instructor to evaluate the diver and tailor the course to fit his/her needs. Translation: No minimum requirements as far as time u/w or number of dives. If we trust the instructor to teach us, surely he can do the evaluation. MVHO Regards, Andy __________________ "I know what you'll find, it's in your mind, it's what you want to see..." Ozzy
(Offline)

25th November 2007, 13:51	#108 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Nice Pink Floyd Quote... . I'll finish it: "You're nearly a laugh, but you're really a cry..." from Animals. Flying pigs, and all..... Back to Rebreather's... Interesting discussion. Two brains: Right Brain: I can build 'em, study 'em, and dive 'em "all by myself"... and hate being told what to do. You can take any rig, toss it on my bench, and in a day I'd have 99% of it all figured out. Left Brain: I taught the rEvo class under observation with Paul Raymaekers and Joe Radomski (talk about being nder the microscope) to become qualified as an ANDI rEvo intructor, and the synergy of having someone else there exchanging tips made it a week of learning for me as well as for the others in the class. There is no "bad' training, assuming that the guy doing the instruction actually knows what he's doing. Just doing the drills repeatedly was worth the effort. Yeah, we all ought do do drills now and then, but... unless you have dives dedicated to training, it does not get done. Just demonstrating the drills sharpened me up a lot. And that's after doing, oh... dunno: let's just say lots of diving all season. I felt better after the course. So... where in the middle is the right way? Bottom line: It needs to based on some set of assumptions of the calibre of the guys expected to be trained. There are always going to be slow learners, and experts being qualified on a new piece of hardware. Too rigid and the fast learners think it sucks. Too flexable and you KNOW that some instructors are gonna mail order card for their buddies. It's just how it is. As an instructor, I would appreciate the flexability of doing crossovers according to my assessment of the client. Example: Big Pete Piemonte is a diver who dove the Doria with me this year. He's one of the most experienced rebreather divers I know. He's been diving a CK for years, and has done (hundreds?) of 250-300 foot open ocean, north atlantic wreck dives with it. There's zero I can teach him about diving rebreathers. He's just bought a rEvo, and I'm going to do his crossover. I could do it in a half day at the LDSOH doing a teardown, and two dives in open water. Since I work to ANDI standards, I will not be able to use my discretion to do this. I'm not going to buck the system, as I think that ANDI has a superb safety record and is by FAR the most diligent agency I've dealt with. On the other hand... it's painful to not be able to do "what it takes". In flying... I would be able to check him out "to proficiency" no matter how long or short it took. That's something we as an industry ought to look at. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com
(Offline)

25th November 2007, 20:32	#109 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,556	Dave, I appreciate that, as an instructor, you freely admit when you can't teach a mandatory student anything about the diving, just about the unit itself. Same with sticking to the standards since they're there. In that case, it sucks as much for you having your hands tied as it does for the student having to take another damn class. Who was your instructor on the user class? Did you come to Europe to take it? Or did you get the unit without having to take a user class/crossover? __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

25th November 2007, 21:07	#110 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,638	Re: CCR Cross Over Training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Dave, I appreciate that, as an instructor, you freely admit when you can't teach a mandatory student anything about the diving, just about the unit itself. Same with sticking to the standards since they're there. In that case, it sucks as much for you having your hands tied as it does for the student having to take another damn class. Who was your instructor on the user class? Did you come to Europe to take it? Or did you get the unit without having to take a user class/crossover? hi stephan, not nice if this is ment to 'stirr up' a bit. you KNOW since long that Dave was among the 32 beta-divers from 2006, where we had agreements, that date from the time before there was an official course on the unit. The official course only started the 1ste of jan 2007. this has been debated intencively on RBW. If you do not know, do a search; regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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