CCR Cross Over Training

paulraymaekers

hi again Martin, my answer is in post #67

if you could learn everything out of a book, why are courses needed anyway?

best regards
paul

__________________
www.rEvo-rebreathers.com

.... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...

fredrik

For the same reason you only need a basic drivers licens, not a specific for Fiat or Jeep. (In Sweden anyway, I don´t know in Belgium)

Why are there not two differnt courses fo Sport and Classic Kiss, why are there not to differnt courses to Classic or Vision Inspiration?

__________________
Fredrik
Rekodeko, Sweden
http://www.rekodeko.se

paulraymaekers

I think it is not the same course.

And even if it would, you mention units of the same family.

there is a reason for a different course for a boris and a prism!

paul

__________________
www.rEvo-rebreathers.com

.... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...

fredrik

Thats what this thread is about, why?
If you have been able to be certified on Boris, shouldn´t you then be able to read the manufactor manual and understand the Sentinel? If not, then they have to rewrite the manual.
People are not that stuipied as some may think.

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Fredrik
Rekodeko, Sweden
http://www.rekodeko.se

dz3866

It is the same course, (ANDI) only diffrence is how to break down and rebuild each unit and a few diffrent questions based on that. My main problem is still why, if a guy is certified on a kiss (ANDI) he just cant take a classroom on break down and set up of another unit and electronics (Revo or other MCCR) same agency (ANDI) all the open water training is going to be the same, and he has allready proved himself to a ANDI instructor on a MCCR.

jradomski

Yes it is the same class and the divers are taught about both rigs since they are from the same manufacturer and share things like electronics and o2 add valve in common, but the student usually only breaks down and set up of the rig they purchased..
If I trained the diver on one rig, I would make sure they spent some time with me reviewing the other rig if they intend to switch..

Some rigs are easier to switch between than others, just because 2 rigs are both mCCRs doesnt mean in use they dive the same.. Being a person who dives the Kiss classic and sport as well as the rEvo, I can say they all dive differently.. There are enough differences between the KISS and rEvo units to justify a crossover program (the electronics alone take several dives to become familiar with). The way we structure our academics the academics can be reduced for a crossover.. Many of the inwater skills between the rEvo and KISSes are the same or similiar but there are also some different skills and some of the skills that can be done on both units have a different order of preference (A skill thats the 1st choice to solve a problem on one rig may be the last choice on another)..

__________________
Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

caver99

----
in any country have been i could drive any car so far...

100% agree with you Fredrik
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"hi again Martin, my answer is in post #67

if you could learn everything out of a book, why are courses needed anyway?

best regards
paul"
-----------to Paul,

Hi again, and i hope Florida was nice.

I never said learning all just from a book.
We are talking about persons which have passt a class on a special rebreather and they just now decide to get a second one, or an other one.
I 100% agree that OC divers will need a class to go over to S/CCRs. even switching form SCR to CCR yes there should be a course, a stripped one, but this is different.

In my personal opinion All SCR are one family (execpt p-SCRs of course), what is the difference between Dolphin and Azimuth? one has jets the other one needle valves..so what...Is is the same family, basic principle is still the same, SCR !
If you dive an FGT, what is the problem to go over to a Voyager or Submatix SCR, just read the manual on the specifics and thats it.

Same as Classic Kiss, home built mCCr (with CMF valves any brand) and revo, these are same family, basicly just mCCRs.
If someone has done a class on either one, has done some dives he just need an introduction mean a good written manufactures manual to understand the other unit or maybe a personal !short introduction! from a shop/instructor.

most OWD students learn on standard BCDs...do they need a course for a wing style BCD?

greetings

Martin

__________________
www.tecme.de

fredrik

How the electronics works should be written in the user manual and according to the manufactor of rEvo it´s so easy to understand that you can learn it from a 30 seconds Youtube video. The rEvodream, like the Hammerhead is also avalible to buy without any certification.

__________________
Fredrik
Rekodeko, Sweden
http://www.rekodeko.se

dz3866

I agree, it takes more time to learn and set up a standard dive computer ( with no training) than it does to learn basic MCCR electronics with a hud! "come on."

caveseeker7

The rEvodream was a really, really bad example since Paul is peddling it to anyone who wants to add it to any rebreather. Same with the Hammerhead that got this thread started. Hundreds of those on MK series and Inspirations without any training, and those units have stock electronics very different from the Hammerhead.

Seems ridiculous that any diver can set, calibrate and read a VR3, URM, Explorer, ZO2/Oxy2, Shearwater GF/Pursuit, even a Hammerhead, rEvodream, Deep Pursuit or voltmeter (for those MK and PRISM divers) but needs a class to learn how to do it once they come as part of a rebreather. Utter nonsense!

Either they are user friendly and have good manuals, or they don't. In any way, plenty of people who never got trained using them have been doing so for years. Which, IMHO, makes different electronics an extremely lousy and stupid reason to require training. Especially on units whose electronics are available to anyone willing to buy them, like the Hammerhead and the rEvodream. Can't rake in the cash on one hand, and use them as a reason for training on the other. That's BS at best, dishonest, greedy and stupid at worst. Insulting too, to think people wouldn't notice.

And the rest of a rebreather?
Breathing bags, hoses, O-rings, connectors, valves. Pretty much the f*cking same components on all units, aren't they. And there for the same purpose, no? I can tell you from 1st hand experience that even though I'm not trained on Dolphin, I managed to disconnect AND reconnect the breathing hose from the DSV once, and it still worked! (*beaming with pride*) Tanks, harness and BC not even part of every unit sold, and we have used them since day 1 of OW class anyway. Leaves the scrubber, and that's an important one because of hypercapnia, lack of monitoring, and they can be vastly different from one another. Then again, that's nothing a quick (more or less, depending on unit) demo (video/CD/DVD) wouldn't solve, and in most cases a good manual would suffice.

The only Rebreather divers who may need help from an instructor is the Optima lot, since they've never learned how to pack a scrubber and bought that unit in the first place ( ).

Leaves you with the skills to dive a rebreather.
If you crossing over from another unit you obviously have enough skills to have survived.
And knowing what rebreather was introduced when sure ain't gonna help me with any problems underwater.

And crossover from mCCR to eCCR? Why?
The electronics control the setpoint, all you gotta do is monitor them. Which obviously a mCCR diver can since he's been controlling the setpoint in the first f*cking place.

So: SCR, eCCR, mCCR, He Rebreather. That ought to be it.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



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