RAID Training Agency (?)

***caveseeker7*** · 12th November 2007, 06:10

Intresting, you'd think that the new agency would have tried to get equivalency credit from the current agencies, try to join them so to speak, rather than the other way around.

As for the manufacturers, NAUI has gone a similar way, and look where it got them in the Rebreather market. You can get trained on the Dolphin, Azimuth, PRISM and I believe they have an instructor or two doing LAR V (and maybe C-96) ... not exactly much of a competitor. IANTD also does the O2 rig(s) for which there isn't much of a market to start out with, IANTD and TDI the PRISM (which has been very low volume), the Azimuth training is available from most everyone, but not many takers, and the Dolphin course is available from everyone.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Devils Advocate)

I do know certain agency members and Rebreather manufacturers got together to discuss RAID and the basic outcome was that they were another agency who were only their to support the Cis.

That worked well for the "agency" that provides Frog training.

Hard to tell who is holding whom back, or if they just deserve each other.

NRC (Nitrox and Rebreather College) has done the Drägers exclusively, and with a reasonable success for themselves and Dräger (at times selling more than 50% of the annual production run according to a German dive mag, however many that are). But only in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, as well as a few German lanuguage bases frequented by German speaking tourists.

But try to get onto a CA diveboat with a NRC c-card. I remember well having problems even with my OW cert from an outfit called DIWA. Same in dive shops, getting fills. Back then I got fed up and got a PADI card and the hassle stopped.

If that PoCisdon works as advertised, it'll be perfect for some people. It may well be perfekt for PADI's train of thougt and instruction. All cheap shots and jokes aside, that would have been groundbreaking in my view, getting PADI to start CCR training. And with their marketing might and worldwide coverage, the PoCisdon would be off to a very different start.

Seems like most rebreather divers don't take the MK-6 serious (that particular unit that is, not some of the the new technology), why in the world are they going with an agency no one can take serious because no one ever heard of it?

If that rig is as good they want to make us believe, it'll be much easier to believe from an instructor that has experience on other units and can actually compare with some authority, rather than some guy who just passed the minimum requirements and is lost without electronics, who stands in front of a Sport Kiss in befuddled awe , asking "What's pO2?".

Tom Mount · 13th November 2007, 23:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Thanks for your reply, Doug, much appreciated.

Personally I don't see that training succeed with units where you actually need skills to survive a failure, hence I doubt most manufacturers will sign on to that aproach. That PoCisdon better be without the usual hick-ups new units seem to have.

About the other agencies I don't know, but unless they either change their standards or openly admit they don't care about them (rather than just disregard them) I don't see it happening. Am curious to see how they will handle their instructors signing up there and handing out c-cards to people that wouldn't qualify under their own to dive rebreathers.

Do you know their requirements for instructors?

IANTD is doing its own program per agreement with Poscidon and it is not a raid program although we may use some raid on line materials
all training will be per IANTD standards in our course on the units thoirs and all others including sentintel

esc · 15th November 2007, 09:43

I gotta say I am bit sceptical about training organization that has:

a)
email in their webpage and announcement that more is coming 1/2008, especially considering that pre-order deal for the unit ends 12/2007

b)
what underlines the a) is that they don't answer to that email presented

It is not only this organization though which have problems answering emails. Sometimes I wonder why they even bother presenting them if they are not going to answer them promptly. At this day of information technology where you have been accustomed to get answer usually under 1h, waiting 3+ days feel kinda strange...

In my business, 3 days + response time would mean customers just left for competitor. Maybe diving industry is not as competitive/saturated after all when some organizations can answer at their leisure, if at all...

/esc

Buccaneer · 15th November 2007, 14:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by esc)

I gotta say I am bit sceptical about training organization that has:

a)
email in their webpage and announcement that more is coming 1/2008, especially considering that pre-order deal for the unit ends 12/2007

b)
what underlines the a) is that they don't answer to that email presented

It is not only this organization though which have problems answering emails. Sometimes I wonder why they even bother presenting them if they are not going to answer them promptly. At this day of information technology where you have been accustomed to get answer usually under 1h, waiting 3+ days feel kinda strange...

In my business, 3 days + response time would mean customers just left for competitor. Maybe diving industry is not as competitive/saturated after all when some organizations can answer at their leisure, if at all...

/esc

I received a timely response to my inquiry.

**jepuskar** · 24th November 2007, 22:31

I can really feel the warmth that the Rebreather World community has extended to the Discovery and RAID programs. It is almost amusing to read the speculation and non-sense posted.

Personally I think some members don't really like the idea that a new recreational rebreather is going to hit the market soon and it just may do away with some of the traditional pitfalls of owning a rebreather.

But hey, lets just beat it up before it even gets released.

**jepuskar** · 31st December 2007, 20:12

Ok, the website is up...so now you can beat it up.

RAID | Rebreather Association of International Divers

From what I can tell the training structure mimicks PADI.

J

wrecktek · 1st January 2008, 12:22

What we should be wondering about is - will they be insured; will there be liability protection for the diver, the instructor and the Dive Store; and without these will a RAID card be recognized by any other agency? Will a RAID diver level 3 have to take a full CCR program from another agency in affect having to pay twice for training to dive a unit to go to the next level????? ie equivalency. Who are the people backing this program and developing the program? Is it just a couple of guys sitting around the bar or do they have a Board of industry experts to develop, support and defend their programs? I wouldn't be lining up to join the crowd just yet. I wouldnt want to be the first one to have to pay to justify their program in court. Realize that they are based in in Sweden and being sued in America makes itigation a big expensive mess. At least from my selfish american perspective - Ha!

But hey I do like the online academic training idea - one that has come of age, is more profitable if used properly, and needs to be imbraced - but thats another thread...

Just a couple of thoughts....

***caveseeker7*** · 1st January 2008, 12:33

Missed info on cross-training, too, also I couldn't find the prices.
Three classes for the one I took twice for two RBs already ...

And the banner's 5 images are two without CC, one OC and two with units
they don't support.

Bummer if you can't get a single decent UW
shot of the units you're training people on.

Anyway, not too impressed so far, although I'm sure the teenies will like it.

12th November 2007, 06:10	#21 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,494	Re: RAID Training and other Agencies Intresting, you'd think that the new agency would have tried to get equivalency credit from the current agencies, try to join them so to speak, rather than the other way around. As for the manufacturers, NAUI has gone a similar way, and look where it got them in the Rebreather market. You can get trained on the Dolphin, Azimuth, PRISM and I believe they have an instructor or two doing LAR V (and maybe C-96) ... not exactly much of a competitor. IANTD also does the O2 rig(s) for which there isn't much of a market to start out with, IANTD and TDI the PRISM (which has been very low volume), the Azimuth training is available from most everyone, but not many takers, and the Dolphin course is available from everyone. Quote: (Originally Posted by Devils Advocate) I do know certain agency members and Rebreather manufacturers got together to discuss RAID and the basic outcome was that they were another agency who were only their to support the Cis. That worked well for the "agency" that provides Frog training. Hard to tell who is holding whom back, or if they just deserve each other. NRC (Nitrox and Rebreather College) has done the Drägers exclusively, and with a reasonable success for themselves and Dräger (at times selling more than 50% of the annual production run according to a German dive mag, however many that are). But only in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, as well as a few German lanuguage bases frequented by German speaking tourists. But try to get onto a CA diveboat with a NRC c-card. I remember well having problems even with my OW cert from an outfit called DIWA. Same in dive shops, getting fills. Back then I got fed up and got a PADI card and the hassle stopped. If that PoCisdon works as advertised, it'll be perfect for some people. It may well be perfekt for PADI's train of thougt and instruction. All cheap shots and jokes aside, that would have been groundbreaking in my view, getting PADI to start CCR training. And with their marketing might and worldwide coverage, the PoCisdon would be off to a very different start. Seems like most rebreather divers don't take the MK-6 serious (that particular unit that is, not some of the the new technology), why in the world are they going with an agency no one can take serious because no one ever heard of it? If that rig is as good they want to make us believe, it'll be much easier to believe from an instructor that has experience on other units and can actually compare with some authority, rather than some guy who just passed the minimum requirements and is lost without electronics, who stands in front of a Sport Kiss in befuddled awe , asking "What's pO2?". __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!" Last edited by caveseeker7 : 12th November 2007 at 06:15.
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13th November 2007, 23:11	#22 (permalink)
Tom Mount New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Posts: 96	Re: Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Thanks for your reply, Doug, much appreciated. Personally I don't see that training succeed with units where you actually need skills to survive a failure, hence I doubt most manufacturers will sign on to that aproach. That PoCisdon better be without the usual hick-ups new units seem to have. About the other agencies I don't know, but unless they either change their standards or openly admit they don't care about them (rather than just disregard them) I don't see it happening. Am curious to see how they will handle their instructors signing up there and handing out c-cards to people that wouldn't qualify under their own to dive rebreathers. Do you know their requirements for instructors? IANTD is doing its own program per agreement with Poscidon and it is not a raid program although we may use some raid on line materials all training will be per IANTD standards in our course on the units thoirs and all others including sentintel
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15th November 2007, 09:43	#23 (permalink)
esc New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 48	Re: RAID Training Agency (?) I gotta say I am bit sceptical about training organization that has: a) email in their webpage and announcement that more is coming 1/2008, especially considering that pre-order deal for the unit ends 12/2007 b) what underlines the a) is that they don't answer to that email presented It is not only this organization though which have problems answering emails. Sometimes I wonder why they even bother presenting them if they are not going to answer them promptly. At this day of information technology where you have been accustomed to get answer usually under 1h, waiting 3+ days feel kinda strange... In my business, 3 days + response time would mean customers just left for competitor. Maybe diving industry is not as competitive/saturated after all when some organizations can answer at their leisure, if at all... /esc
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15th November 2007, 14:12	#24 (permalink)
Buccaneer New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Boston Posts: 50	Re: RAID Training Agency (?) Quote: (Originally Posted by esc) I gotta say I am bit sceptical about training organization that has: a) email in their webpage and announcement that more is coming 1/2008, especially considering that pre-order deal for the unit ends 12/2007 b) what underlines the a) is that they don't answer to that email presented It is not only this organization though which have problems answering emails. Sometimes I wonder why they even bother presenting them if they are not going to answer them promptly. At this day of information technology where you have been accustomed to get answer usually under 1h, waiting 3+ days feel kinda strange... In my business, 3 days + response time would mean customers just left for competitor. Maybe diving industry is not as competitive/saturated after all when some organizations can answer at their leisure, if at all... /esc I received a timely response to my inquiry.
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24th November 2007, 22:31	#25 (permalink)
jepuskar NA Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 397	Re: RAID Training Agency (?) I can really feel the warmth that the Rebreather World community has extended to the Discovery and RAID programs. It is almost amusing to read the speculation and non-sense posted. Personally I think some members don't really like the idea that a new recreational rebreather is going to hit the market soon and it just may do away with some of the traditional pitfalls of owning a rebreather. But hey, lets just beat it up before it even gets released.
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31st December 2007, 20:12	#26 (permalink)
jepuskar NA Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 397	Re: RAID Training Agency (?) Ok, the website is up...so now you can beat it up. RAID \| Rebreather Association of International Divers From what I can tell the training structure mimicks PADI. J
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1st January 2008, 12:22	#27 (permalink)
wrecktek New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: usa Posts: 9	Re: RAID Training Agency (?) What we should be wondering about is - will they be insured; will there be liability protection for the diver, the instructor and the Dive Store; and without these will a RAID card be recognized by any other agency? Will a RAID diver level 3 have to take a full CCR program from another agency in affect having to pay twice for training to dive a unit to go to the next level????? ie equivalency. Who are the people backing this program and developing the program? Is it just a couple of guys sitting around the bar or do they have a Board of industry experts to develop, support and defend their programs? I wouldn't be lining up to join the crowd just yet. I wouldnt want to be the first one to have to pay to justify their program in court. Realize that they are based in in Sweden and being sued in America makes itigation a big expensive mess. At least from my selfish american perspective - Ha! But hey I do like the online academic training idea - one that has come of age, is more profitable if used properly, and needs to be imbraced - but thats another thread... Just a couple of thoughts....
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1st January 2008, 12:33	#28 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,494	Re: RAID Training Agency (?) Missed info on cross-training, too, also I couldn't find the prices. Three classes for the one I took twice for two RBs already ... And the banner's 5 images are two without CC, one OC and two with units they don't support. Bummer if you can't get a single decent UW shot of the units you're training people on. Anyway, not too impressed so far, although I'm sure the teenies will like it. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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