HammerHead CCR Training

caveseeker7

There is a difference between testing to CE standards and CE certification.
All this waffling on about liability, and training/crossover needed to avoid or limit liability comes across as rubbish when you're selling an untested rig IMHO.

Would be nice if the Hammerhead, Meg, PRISM, Kiss et al could be bought at dive shops throughout Europe. But for me the lack of testing has become more of an issue than the lack of certification. I still don't know how that 150 min scrubber rating on my Sport Kiss was dreamed up, now that I've seen the test results. Nor did I ever know wtf they were based on. But I think any good ambulance chaser could have gotten milage out it had I become a fatality due to hypercapnia. And ANDI passes those dreamed up numbers on to their students, too (CH.3 Pg.15). And in the scheme of things I believe it would be more important to know results from actual testing rather than the year of introduction of the Electrolung (just happens to be one of the items taught in both my ANDI and TDI CCR classes).

Manufacturers wanting to limit liability should do some real testing to avoid circumstances where liability becomes an issue. Maybe the agencies should require at least some testing (setpoint control accuracy on eCCRs, scrubber duration and WOB come to mind) before they support a rebreather with training. Might limit their liability, too. NAUI, from what I understand, already does that in some form.

Setting that liability argument aside, my thoughts on crossovers are mixed. Some people need it. Some people, it helps. Some people don't need it. Kinda hard to argue someone needs it with a decade or two of CCR experience under their belt on different rigs including homebuilds for which you can't even get training in the first place. They're still around, they gotta do something right. FFS, there are of people on here diving rebreathers longer than some of the manufacturers have been building and saying "you need training for my super duper CCR".

As for me, I bite the sour apple, pony up the money and study that damn timeline again because I've got plenty to learn. But I'll make sure I'll get every f*cking cent worth out of it or I'll raise the biggest stink I can.

A good instructor can make it worth the effort and money.

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Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

jradomski

The number in the text is 150 mins (2.5 hours) for the Sport.. Gordon based this on inhouse testing with realistic diver production levels allwoing for some margin (at least thats what he told me) not CE paramaters..

at ce parameters it fell short (using a comparitive depth to the insp and ouroborus - 18m) by about 30 mins in reasonable water temps and 1 hr in cold water.. If they tested it in true warm water I bet it would be pretty close..

I don;t think his numbers were that bad.. I still think they are safe, but now the responsibility is dumped on the diver to exceed the CE test data..

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Joe Radomski
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10

All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.

heyydude

Stefan,

Since everyone now knows about my involvement with the US Navy, you can probably surmise that I've become quite familiar with places like Dive Lab, ANSTI, Hydrospace, etc, etc.

In direct comparison to two of the, (ahem...), best sellers out there, one of the better known gents in the rebreather testing field stated flatly that our ppO2 control was so much better than anything he had seen before that it was "shocking."

As for the rest of the machine - significant testing is going on, and even more is planned, including a full scrubber duration test. Once all is said and done, we'll have a nice chart like Kevin G. to show off - we'll include ppO2 control, naturally, since that's where we can have one of those nice "Enzyte" type charts comparing our much less endowed bretheren to our system...



After 5 years of working with the US Navy and NATO, I can tell you one thing - I do know how to test a damn rebreather...



Take care,

Kevin Juergensen
Juergensen Marine, Inc.

caveseeker7

That's good news, Kevin, and what I was hoping for.

I've only seen VR3 records of comparable dives from the Inspo HH vs. stock, which are far from accurate of course, but setpoint control looked very promising. Glad to hear you're planning on getting your tested.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

Dutchy

Because they want to have a cert that they NEED? (Because of boat owner requiring one)
My point was that I agreed that the current system is worse for manufacturers than it is for agencies.

Training in its current form adds a substantial amount to the cost needed to acquire a unit that is extremely light (I'd opt for the titanium baby sized rEvo) and yet more rugged than the one I own but Functionally not much different from the one I own. In such a case where it only potentially broadens my diving horizon (I don't intend to make longer or deeper dives) a bigger investment stops me from buying.

I could learn dozens of other non Rebreather-related "tricks" during a real course but tbh I've learned more from fellow divers than courses so far, so I don't have high hopes on that matter. A simple mCCR->other mCCR crossover could help.

Oh and before anybody suggests it imho that's not the same thing as taking a $1500 dollar course in 2 dives on one day (with a nearly unchanged course price).

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fredrik

Hi Kev!
Did you get my PM last week about banana plugs and silicon?

Fredrik

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Fredrik
Rekodeko, Sweden
http://www.rekodeko.se