HammerHead CCR Training

henckell · 20th November 2007, 23:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

One of the reasons that the MFG chooses to take this approach is to address liability.

Let's speak about liability...

Why would a MFG be more concerned about liability regarding a rig that is made up of a mix of new parts together with a couple of vital components that are all sold separately without any training or liability requirements?

Doesn't make sense to me...

The components in this case are the BOV, the complete electronics package and the radial scrubber. The liability is adressed when you add 2 hoses and a tube...

If I modify a rig, will that invalidate the liability? What modification will/won't interfere with liability?

Maybe this is an American thing, because "liability" in the way that it's practised in USA doesn't exist anywhere else (that I know of...).

What about liability when it comes to user safety due to design errors, or manufacturing flaws, or customer service policies?

I definitely think that people would benefit more from increased REliability in performance and other things than from all this talk about "Liability" in crossover courses...

dz3866 · 21st November 2007, 01:20

$300/day seems cheap... nobody can make a professional living charging that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Nobody worth his salt can make a good day of work out of $300.

Dave[/quote]
$300/day is cheap, thats why most try to get 3 or 4 before starting a class, because $1200.00 a day is nice,

to do what you love.

**trob09** · 21st November 2007, 01:44

Just to be clear on my opinion, I am not a rabid proponent of the "SCUBA certification is a conspiratorial scam" movement. I believe that training and education have a purpose.

I am concerned that training is increasingly seen as a vehicle to shield against litigation and less of a tool to impart knowledge and develop skill. I am not saying this is specifically the case here, but it does feel that way a bit to me. Sure, I won't deny that there is opportunity for me to learn something new or to practice skills that I may not have done recently or even to be evaluated by a new set of eyes.

I am not against an instructor earning a fair wage for their efforts, just as I am not against a manufacturer putting in place reasonable safeguards to protect themselves against losing it all in the event of a litigious surviving family member.

I just wonder, at what point does the industry, manufacturer base, training agencies, insurance companies and legal support system think it's ok for me to decide when additional training is in my best interest vs. deciding I can figure out things on my own.

I guess that means I am a supporter of increased personal accountability. for whatever that's worth.

Tim
Megla/Hammer/Golem/Lunar diver.

***jradomski*** · 21st November 2007, 03:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

$300/day seems cheap... nobody can make a professional living charging that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
Nobody worth his salt can make a good day of work out of $300.

Dave

My quote was to make a minimum of $300 a day, thats after expenses.. I also don't make it a habit either to make the minimum.. Granted I don't make as much as when I do consulting Where my hourly wage is nearly what I quoted above, but I enjoy training divers and will make the exception when the right people are involved..
BTW I usually train at least 2 students at a time, so the net is more reasonable..

***jradomski*** · 21st November 2007, 04:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

Serious question: Do ANDI standards actually require the instructor to dive during the class, the exact model of the unit they are teaching?

Ted

Standards have to start somewhere and requiring unlimited access is a start.. The cost of continued ownership without teaching is a waste of money.. The continued ownership without using a rig is a waste also.. I am not saying its impossible for a rig to just sit in a closet for years without being used but its unlikely.. The next step is an effective q&A.. When asked most students will be upfront if they feel they werent beeing guided or if the instructor seems to be making small mistakes..

Standards must be aplicable worldwide so thats an impossibility because of CE.. The instructor is encouraged on using the same unit but its not mandatory.. The instructor is not allowed to use a unit where the normal operation of the unit by the instructor could lead to student confusion..

for example... a rig that has o2 injection on the left vs o2 injection on the right.. If the instructor was manually flying the unit the student would see the instructor constantly injecting from the left..

**Dave Sutton** · 21st November 2007, 10:42

[/quote]$300/day is cheap, thats why most try to get 3 or 4 before starting a class, because $1200.00 a day is nice,

to do what you love.[/quote]

All I can say is what I do based on my own teaching: I have virtually always taught one on one... sometimes a buddy pair. Never more. Irrespective of any standards, I don't think you can really teach more than two at a time.

If I charge $1000 for a course, that's a 5 day period at $200/day, and when I'm not out flying so I'm at a loss for that revenue. Trust me here... I've made $200 a *minute* flying for high risk test flight, and my basic day rate as a Falcon Captain for an international flight is never less than $2000/day.

Working for 10% of my normal day rate means that I'm not doing it for money... and my bet is that many instructors also hold good day jobs that they put aside to teach diving, so although they do get paid, it's not a money maker. Get two guys in class? That's a whopping $400/day. Wowie! I think I'll retire.... not.

Bottom line is that nobody is getting rich training divers. Not me, anyway.

ANDI has it's act together... it's the first agency I've dealt with that actually impresses me. I'm not just "tolerant" of it... I'm respectful. It's a class operation.

Dave

Richard Lundgren · 21st November 2007, 12:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Dave see post #52..

Same on same is not mandatory (because of CE) but recommended when allowed.. But the instructor must still be able to dive the unit to maintain proficiency - hecnce the "ownership" requirement.. If the instructor doesnt dive the righ they should not teach the rig..

Hi all

So is the HammerHead going to be CE-tested in a not to far future?

Take care
Richard Lundgren

diver1369 · 21st November 2007, 13:29

A student’s perspective:

1. As the manufacturer, and the person/entity who bears ultimately legal (financial) liability in the US court system, JM is entitled to set standards for ownership of their products that decrease the likelihood of losing it all in a legal battle that, even if they win the verdict, can soak up a seven figure legal fee easily.

2. Granted the above is an artificiality based on the notoriously litigious US legal environment, but we aren’t going to fix that problem here, so it’s a given for JM.

3. I’ve dived all the bits of the new JM HH (radial, electronics, FM CL, et,c,) and am willing to get cross-over training, even though I see no practical problem diving the unit without it. But… I would balk at having to take a full MOD 1 again.

4. I would expect to get value received for the money and time I invest in crossover training. That means that, even if I think I know the unit now, I would expect to know it better after training. And I would expect to have a valuable refresher on basic skills; I suspect that many Rebreather divers, like me, do not practice their survivor skills on every dive. Refresher training with a seriously good instructor (or mentor) is not a bad thing.

5. Because of 4, above, I would carefully select an instructor who I feel has a commitment to training, and to the unit. That would mean (to me) that they dive the unit as part of their personal kit, not just for the odd class. It also means that their ‘body of work’ (err, perhaps an unfortunate choice of words) bears critical scrutiny. It means their students are advocates of their training, and that they are well regarded by their peers – other instructors who are also generally recognized as top-notch instructors.

6. Good instructors, I personally believe, are generally not in it for the money – because there is very little money to be had as an instructor. It’s a labor of love, as are most jobs that involve teaching a new generation, whether its life skills, or technical skills. That being said, I think the instructor fee for a cross over course should pass the ‘value received’ test (see 4 above.) Choose your cross over instructor carefully, and I have no doubt that it will.

Always a student, never an instructor…
john

***jradomski*** · 21st November 2007, 13:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by diver1369)

A student’s perspective:

1. As the manufacturer, and the person/entity who bears ultimately legal (financial) liability in the US court system, JM is entitled to set standards for ownership of their products that decrease the likelihood of losing it all in a legal battle that, even if they win the verdict, can soak up a seven figure legal fee easily.

2. Granted the above is an artificiality based on the notoriously litigious US legal environment, but we aren’t going to fix that problem here, so it’s a given for JM.

3. I’ve dived all the bits of the new JM HH (radial, electronics, FM CL, et,c,) and am willing to get cross-over training, even though I see no practical problem diving the unit without it. But… I would balk at having to take a full MOD 1 again.

4. I would expect to get value received for the money and time I invest in crossover training. That means that, even if I think I know the unit now, I would expect to know it better after training. And I would expect to have a valuable refresher on basic skills; I suspect that many Rebreather divers, like me, do not practice their survivor skills on every dive. Refresher training with a seriously good instructor (or mentor) is not a bad thing.

5. Because of 4, above, I would carefully select an instructor who I feel has a commitment to training, and to the unit. That would mean (to me) that they dive the unit as part of their personal kit, not just for the odd class. It also means that their ‘body of work’ (err, perhaps an unfortunate choice of words) bears critical scrutiny. It means their students are advocates of their training, and that they are well regarded by their peers – other instructors who are also generally recognized as top-notch instructors.

6. Good instructors, I personally believe, are generally not in it for the money – because there is very little money to be had as an instructor. It’s a labor of love, as are most jobs that involve teaching a new generation, whether its life skills, or technical skills. That being said, I think the instructor fee for a cross over course should pass the ‘value received’ test (see 4 above.) Choose your cross over instructor carefully, and I have no doubt that it will.

Always a student, never an instructor…
john

well put.. have some green..

***jradomski*** · 21st November 2007, 14:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Lundgren)

Hi all

So is the HammerHead going to be CE-tested in a not to far future?

Take care
Richard Lundgren

Kevin has plans for CE testing but its not in the immediate future.. Remember he is still doing some tweeking and if he changes anything it would require retesting..

CE would also force some other restrictions on him which I am not sure he is ready to take on.. CE requires a complete kit ready to dive with basically no hardware options.. I know he does not want to deal with cylinders/valves so a dealer network will have to be in place to supply this stuff with the sale..

20th November 2007, 23:06	#21 (permalink)
henckell RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 91	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) One of the reasons that the MFG chooses to take this approach is to address liability. Let's speak about liability... Why would a MFG be more concerned about liability regarding a rig that is made up of a mix of new parts together with a couple of vital components that are all sold separately without any training or liability requirements? Doesn't make sense to me... The components in this case are the BOV, the complete electronics package and the radial scrubber. The liability is adressed when you add 2 hoses and a tube... If I modify a rig, will that invalidate the liability? What modification will/won't interfere with liability? Maybe this is an American thing, because "liability" in the way that it's practised in USA doesn't exist anywhere else (that I know of...). What about liability when it comes to user safety due to design errors, or manufacturing flaws, or customer service policies? I definitely think that people would benefit more from increased REliability in performance and other things than from all this talk about "Liability" in crossover courses... __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
(Online)

21st November 2007, 01:20	#22 (permalink)
dz3866 zboy Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2005 Location: US California Posts: 148	Re: HammerHead CCR Training $300/day seems cheap... nobody can make a professional living charging that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Nobody worth his salt can make a good day of work out of $300. Dave[/quote] $300/day is cheap, thats why most try to get 3 or 4 before starting a class, because $1200.00 a day is nice, to do what you love.
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 01:44	#23 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 701	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Just to be clear on my opinion, I am not a rabid proponent of the "SCUBA certification is a conspiratorial scam" movement. I believe that training and education have a purpose. I am concerned that training is increasingly seen as a vehicle to shield against litigation and less of a tool to impart knowledge and develop skill. I am not saying this is specifically the case here, but it does feel that way a bit to me. Sure, I won't deny that there is opportunity for me to learn something new or to practice skills that I may not have done recently or even to be evaluated by a new set of eyes. I am not against an instructor earning a fair wage for their efforts, just as I am not against a manufacturer putting in place reasonable safeguards to protect themselves against losing it all in the event of a litigious surviving family member. I just wonder, at what point does the industry, manufacturer base, training agencies, insurance companies and legal support system think it's ok for me to decide when additional training is in my best interest vs. deciding I can figure out things on my own. I guess that means I am a supporter of increased personal accountability. for whatever that's worth. Tim Megla/Hammer/Golem/Lunar diver.
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 03:49	#24 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) $300/day seems cheap... nobody can make a professional living charging that. Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Nobody worth his salt can make a good day of work out of $300. Dave My quote was to make a minimum of $300 a day, thats after expenses.. I also don't make it a habit either to make the minimum.. Granted I don't make as much as when I do consulting Where my hourly wage is nearly what I quoted above, but I enjoy training divers and will make the exception when the right people are involved.. BTW I usually train at least 2 students at a time, so the net is more reasonable.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 04:00	#25 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) Serious question: Do ANDI standards actually require the instructor to dive during the class, the exact model of the unit they are teaching? Ted Standards have to start somewhere and requiring unlimited access is a start.. The cost of continued ownership without teaching is a waste of money.. The continued ownership without using a rig is a waste also.. I am not saying its impossible for a rig to just sit in a closet for years without being used but its unlikely.. The next step is an effective q&A.. When asked most students will be upfront if they feel they werent beeing guided or if the instructor seems to be making small mistakes.. Standards must be aplicable worldwide so thats an impossibility because of CE.. The instructor is encouraged on using the same unit but its not mandatory.. The instructor is not allowed to use a unit where the normal operation of the unit by the instructor could lead to student confusion.. for example... a rig that has o2 injection on the left vs o2 injection on the right.. If the instructor was manually flying the unit the student would see the instructor constantly injecting from the left.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 10:42	#26 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,907	Re: HammerHead CCR Training [/quote]$300/day is cheap, thats why most try to get 3 or 4 before starting a class, because $1200.00 a day is nice, to do what you love.[/quote] All I can say is what I do based on my own teaching: I have virtually always taught one on one... sometimes a buddy pair. Never more. Irrespective of any standards, I don't think you can really teach more than two at a time. If I charge $1000 for a course, that's a 5 day period at $200/day, and when I'm not out flying so I'm at a loss for that revenue. Trust me here... I've made $200 a minute flying for high risk test flight, and my basic day rate as a Falcon Captain for an international flight is never less than $2000/day. Working for 10% of my normal day rate means that I'm not doing it for money... and my bet is that many instructors also hold good day jobs that they put aside to teach diving, so although they do get paid, it's not a money maker. Get two guys in class? That's a whopping $400/day. Wowie! I think I'll retire.... not. Bottom line is that nobody is getting rich training divers. Not me, anyway. ANDI has it's act together... it's the first agency I've dealt with that actually impresses me. I'm not just "tolerant" of it... I'm respectful. It's a class operation. Dave __________________ "Silent Diving with No Bubbles and No Politics".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 21st November 2007 at 10:44.
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 12:49	#27 (permalink)
Richard Lundgren New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 52	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Dave see post #52.. Same on same is not mandatory (because of CE) but recommended when allowed.. But the instructor must still be able to dive the unit to maintain proficiency - hecnce the "ownership" requirement.. If the instructor doesnt dive the righ they should not teach the rig.. Hi all So is the HammerHead going to be CE-tested in a not to far future? Take care Richard Lundgren
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 13:29	#28 (permalink)
diver1369 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 87	Re: HammerHead CCR Training A student’s perspective: 1. As the manufacturer, and the person/entity who bears ultimately legal (financial) liability in the US court system, JM is entitled to set standards for ownership of their products that decrease the likelihood of losing it all in a legal battle that, even if they win the verdict, can soak up a seven figure legal fee easily. 2. Granted the above is an artificiality based on the notoriously litigious US legal environment, but we aren’t going to fix that problem here, so it’s a given for JM. 3. I’ve dived all the bits of the new JM HH (radial, electronics, FM CL, et,c,) and am willing to get cross-over training, even though I see no practical problem diving the unit without it. But… I would balk at having to take a full MOD 1 again. 4. I would expect to get value received for the money and time I invest in crossover training. That means that, even if I think I know the unit now, I would expect to know it better after training. And I would expect to have a valuable refresher on basic skills; I suspect that many Rebreather divers, like me, do not practice their survivor skills on every dive. Refresher training with a seriously good instructor (or mentor) is not a bad thing. 5. Because of 4, above, I would carefully select an instructor who I feel has a commitment to training, and to the unit. That would mean (to me) that they dive the unit as part of their personal kit, not just for the odd class. It also means that their ‘body of work’ (err, perhaps an unfortunate choice of words) bears critical scrutiny. It means their students are advocates of their training, and that they are well regarded by their peers – other instructors who are also generally recognized as top-notch instructors. 6. Good instructors, I personally believe, are generally not in it for the money – because there is very little money to be had as an instructor. It’s a labor of love, as are most jobs that involve teaching a new generation, whether its life skills, or technical skills. That being said, I think the instructor fee for a cross over course should pass the ‘value received’ test (see 4 above.) Choose your cross over instructor carefully, and I have no doubt that it will. Always a student, never an instructor… john
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 13:58	#29 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by diver1369) A student’s perspective: 1. As the manufacturer, and the person/entity who bears ultimately legal (financial) liability in the US court system, JM is entitled to set standards for ownership of their products that decrease the likelihood of losing it all in a legal battle that, even if they win the verdict, can soak up a seven figure legal fee easily. 2. Granted the above is an artificiality based on the notoriously litigious US legal environment, but we aren’t going to fix that problem here, so it’s a given for JM. 3. I’ve dived all the bits of the new JM HH (radial, electronics, FM CL, et,c,) and am willing to get cross-over training, even though I see no practical problem diving the unit without it. But… I would balk at having to take a full MOD 1 again. 4. I would expect to get value received for the money and time I invest in crossover training. That means that, even if I think I know the unit now, I would expect to know it better after training. And I would expect to have a valuable refresher on basic skills; I suspect that many Rebreather divers, like me, do not practice their survivor skills on every dive. Refresher training with a seriously good instructor (or mentor) is not a bad thing. 5. Because of 4, above, I would carefully select an instructor who I feel has a commitment to training, and to the unit. That would mean (to me) that they dive the unit as part of their personal kit, not just for the odd class. It also means that their ‘body of work’ (err, perhaps an unfortunate choice of words) bears critical scrutiny. It means their students are advocates of their training, and that they are well regarded by their peers – other instructors who are also generally recognized as top-notch instructors. 6. Good instructors, I personally believe, are generally not in it for the money – because there is very little money to be had as an instructor. It’s a labor of love, as are most jobs that involve teaching a new generation, whether its life skills, or technical skills. That being said, I think the instructor fee for a cross over course should pass the ‘value received’ test (see 4 above.) Choose your cross over instructor carefully, and I have no doubt that it will. Always a student, never an instructor… john well put.. have some green.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

21st November 2007, 14:03	#30 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Lundgren) Hi all So is the HammerHead going to be CE-tested in a not to far future? Take care Richard Lundgren Kevin has plans for CE testing but its not in the immediate future.. Remember he is still doing some tweeking and if he changes anything it would require retesting.. CE would also force some other restrictions on him which I am not sure he is ready to take on.. CE requires a complete kit ready to dive with basically no hardware options.. I know he does not want to deal with cylinders/valves so a dealer network will have to be in place to supply this stuff with the sale.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode