HammerHead CCR Training

**trob09** · 18th November 2007, 05:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I don't think you are being a jerk but...

From a manufacturer's liability standpoint he has to require a crossover.. Several of my first students are Meg instructors and some very experienced HH users.. I am 100% sure there is going to be alot of repetition, but I am also 100% sure I cant teach them something they dont know..

My next comment is not meant to be a smart ass,

If you think there is nothing you can learn from training with someone else, then you shouldnt be diving.. I have experience with many rigs and always look forward to working with someone who has intimate knowledge of the new rig, and always look forward to discussing ideas.. There is always something to learn..

Thanks for your response Joe, but I think we are talking about fundamentally different things. To be clear, I have no hesitation in discussing things I don't know. I've tried to be clear that I consider myself a beginner in diving and continue to believe the same. I firmly believe that there are plenty of things that I don't know. I have taken and paid for classes that instructors have told me are unnecessary for me - simply so I could learn more.

but...

No-one required me to take a class when I bought my first hammerhead. No one required me to take a class when I bought my second hammerhead. No one required me to take a class when I bought my BOV, Manifold or my cis lunar scrubber. I understand the purpose of liability protection, but I've assembled what I would consider to be a near-parity unit - indeed, I joked with another diver on this board that I have a Hammerhead CCR prototype (note to Kevin - in no way do I think I was involved in the development of the Hammerhead CCR...it was a joke).

So, if I can put this together on my own without answering the question in your PM, why do I need to answer it to buy the assembled unit? That's really my question.

T

***jradomski*** · 18th November 2007, 06:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

Hi Joe, just a quick question.
According to you there is not exception to the training part.
That would mean that you and Tom Mount was trained on this unit too?

/Jonny

Jonny I cant speak for Tom, but I do visit the factory -last time about 1 month ago (and expect visits in the future). I also have regular contact with Kevin (and Jacob for the golem gear stuff) as Kevin stated earlier, I am writing the HH factory manual and I need to be in constant communication with him.. I have been one of Kevin's crash test dummies since he started selling the HH electronics..

henckell · 18th November 2007, 20:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by UWSojourner)

Then they're just a parts supplier and if you make "something" out of the parts and get yourself hurt ... well, it's your own darn fault.

Sounds exactly like how the KISS was sold a couple of years ago...

**UWSojourner** · 18th November 2007, 20:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell)

Sounds exactly like how the KISS was sold a couple of years ago...

Was that the Kill Inessential Services Stupid unit?

(running for cover now)

fredrik · 18th November 2007, 21:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

The electronics are a definately an area where complete knowledge is an asset, but the assembly/disassembly of the rig and the proper packing of the scrubber is just as important.

Will the course be one or will there be 12 (or maybe more) different courses depending on how you want your Hammerhead CCR delivered?

Solenoid, OTS and Radial scrubber
Solenoid, OTS and Pre packed scrubber
Solenoid, BMCL and Radial scrubber
Solenoid, BMCL and Pre packed scrubber
Mass flow, OTS and Radial scrubber
Mass flow, OTS and Pre packed scrubber
Mass flow, BMCL and Radial scrubber
Mass flow, BMCL and Pre packed scrubber
Solenoid, Mass flow, OTS and Radial scrubber
Solenoid, Mass flow, OTS and Pre packed scrubber
Solenoid, Mass flow, BMCL and Radial scrubber
Solenoid, Mass flow, BMCL and Pre packed scrubber

I have never done an ANDI course myself because they are not represented in my area but I understand they do very good education material, so do IART. (IANTD is embarrassing when it comes to this and I can´t understand they are still around). If you write the material I belive you get paid for it otherwise someone is ripping you of bigtime, unless ANDI is a non profit organisation.

If you do the manual to the Hammerhead CCR, this is a deal between you and Juergensen Marine. When buying a life support gadeget worth $10.500 I belive you should expect to get a manual with it.

About education I am NOT against it but I think the organisations have too much power and the way they are working at the moment they are not good for the manufacturs.

The manufactures, who do all the work, have to put a lot of money into developing a unit, to market, to upgrade it and so on. I think the day when their unit economically has reached breakeven is a very happ day.

What the education organisations does is to stop the sales for them because:

If you want to move over to a differnt, but similiar, unit you not only have to pay for the unit, you also have to pay for another education on that specific unit. Sometimes that may be worthless to you. This makes you think twice before buying the new unit.
It may not be that easy to find an instructor on that specific unit in your own area and you have to pay to get to a place where you can find one. This make s you think twice before buying the new unit.
Maybe you want education in your own language. Then you have to find, if there is one, an instructor on that specific unit that also speaks your language. This makes you think twice before buying the new unit.

Compared to the manufactures the education organisations have to do nothing (especially IANTD) to make some nice green.

About PADI, I´ve heard since the day I started diving that it stands for "Put Another Dollar In". Everybody understands it´s a joke. It´s up to you if you wan´t to be certified "Flash Lite Diver" or not. You can still buy a Flash Lite without being certified. When we are talking about Rebreather education "Put Another Dollar In" it´s NOT a joke anymore.

This is what I belive will cover the CCR training at most.

MCCR, basic
ECCR, basic
Crossover from MCCR to ECCR
Crossover from ECCR to MCCR
Sport Depth to Technical Depth

Those 5 courses should also cover any "liability".

**trob09** · 20th November 2007, 13:38

Just a few thoughts here before I exit this discussion...

The question of training on this unit is largely academic for me. As mentioned, I believe I've already assembled a unit that is functionally identical to the HH CCR (as near as I can tell). I can't really see the point of spending to have a factory version of what I'm already diving. This is not a criticism of the HH CCR - by all accounts and appearances it seems to be a very solid unit that utilized some excellent technologies. My hat's off to Kevin and the team. If this unit were available when I bought my meg, I would have bought it instead and paid for HH CCR training rather than my meg cert.

But something here didn't quite sit right with me:

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Charlie,
It has been a while since I have DIRECTLY paid for training.. but when it boils down to it I haven't gotten a free ride either.. I still have to work with a manufacturer, which usually involves travelling and lodging expenses, and taking valuable time off from money making endeavors.. WHen I am creating training materials it also require alot of time on the phone with said manufacturer.. If anything my time and costs usually end up considerably more than someone just taking a class..

Lets take the last Rebreather that I woorked on as an example, just creating the exams and going back and forth with paul on an almost daily bases I easily spent several times the time a class would cover and thats just a small portion of what I had to work on.. Then there is instructor procedures, power points and a training manual.. and then I still assisted with an entire diver/instructor program as well.. I had to spend private time with paul, and we had lots of additional work before and after each meetings with the student.. Much more work than a diver would ever be required to do..

In no way do I mean to impugn the effort that you put forward in developing training information of end-users and instructors. I've purchased ANDI materials even though I'm not an ANDI student as they go into great detail - far more so than just about any other materials I've seen.

But ultimately, this effort is part of your work-product for ANDI and whatever business arrangement you have with a manufacturer. One presumes that this investment will be repaid through the corse of time as students and instructors are trained on these units (if it doesn't, I'd suggest your business model is broken). In my world, we would qualify this as the cost of doing business. High value and high quality work to be sure, but not quite the same as taking a class in order to purchase and use a unit.

Anyway, good luck with the HH CCR and it's training.

Tim

***jradomski*** · 20th November 2007, 13:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09)

But ultimately, this effort is part of your work-product for ANDI and whatever business arrangement you have with a manufacturer. One presumes that this investment will be repaid through the corse of time as students and instructors are trained on these units (if it doesn't, I'd suggest your business model is broken). In my world, we would qualify this as the cost of doing business. High value and high quality work to be sure, but not quite the same as taking a class in order to purchase and use a unit.

Anyway, good luck with the HH CCR and it's training.

Tim

Hello Tim,

The expected paypack is definately in the form of training divers and instructors at a later date (selling manuals for limited products is not that profitable).. This has worked out with all but one manufacturer that I had a disagreement after the fact and don't train divers on nor do I expect to..

I also have seperate agreements seperate from ANDI to produce manufacturer materials..

***jradomski*** · 20th November 2007, 13:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik)

This is what I belive will cover the CCR training at most.

MCCR, basic
ECCR, basic
Crossover from MCCR to ECCR
Crossover from ECCR to MCCR
Sport Depth to Technical Depth

Those 5 courses should also cover any "liability".

This will only come to be when manufactures decide it is acceptable..

Right now its in their ballpark as to the minimum requirements that they demand.

**trob09** · 20th November 2007, 14:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Hello Tim,

The expected paypack is definately in the form of training divers and instructors at a later date (selling manuals for limited products is not that profitable).. This has worked out with all but one manufacturer that I had a disagreement after the fact and don't train divers on nor do I expect to..

I also have seperate agreements seperate from ANDI to produce manufacturer materials..

That was my expectation. As mentioned, by all accounts the work you do is very good.. My point was more that you were comparing the effort you put in to developing materials (i.e. business development efforts) to that of a student taking a class (customer purchasing training and materials). Apples and oranges as they say.

fredrik · 20th November 2007, 21:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

Gang,

I am sure that Kevin will sell lots of units because he has designed along with Golem Gear and excellent unit.

Dive Safe...

Mark

This is not just about this unit, rather the education organisations.
It has been talking about this erlier but of course the problem shines even brighter when a unit is released that got a O2 system that alot of divers already use without any education.

18th November 2007, 05:10	#11 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 699	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I don't think you are being a jerk but... From a manufacturer's liability standpoint he has to require a crossover.. Several of my first students are Meg instructors and some very experienced HH users.. I am 100% sure there is going to be alot of repetition, but I am also 100% sure I cant teach them something they dont know.. My next comment is not meant to be a smart ass, If you think there is nothing you can learn from training with someone else, then you shouldnt be diving.. I have experience with many rigs and always look forward to working with someone who has intimate knowledge of the new rig, and always look forward to discussing ideas.. There is always something to learn.. Thanks for your response Joe, but I think we are talking about fundamentally different things. To be clear, I have no hesitation in discussing things I don't know. I've tried to be clear that I consider myself a beginner in diving and continue to believe the same. I firmly believe that there are plenty of things that I don't know. I have taken and paid for classes that instructors have told me are unnecessary for me - simply so I could learn more. but... No-one required me to take a class when I bought my first hammerhead. No one required me to take a class when I bought my second hammerhead. No one required me to take a class when I bought my BOV, Manifold or my cis lunar scrubber. I understand the purpose of liability protection, but I've assembled what I would consider to be a near-parity unit - indeed, I joked with another diver on this board that I have a Hammerhead CCR prototype (note to Kevin - in no way do I think I was involved in the development of the Hammerhead CCR...it was a joke). So, if I can put this together on my own without answering the question in your PM, why do I need to answer it to buy the assembled unit? That's really my question. T
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18th November 2007, 06:04	#12 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,011	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB) Hi Joe, just a quick question. According to you there is not exception to the training part. That would mean that you and Tom Mount was trained on this unit too? /Jonny Jonny I cant speak for Tom, but I do visit the factory -last time about 1 month ago (and expect visits in the future). I also have regular contact with Kevin (and Jacob for the golem gear stuff) as Kevin stated earlier, I am writing the HH factory manual and I need to be in constant communication with him.. I have been one of Kevin's crash test dummies since he started selling the HH electronics.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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18th November 2007, 20:38	#13 (permalink)
henckell New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 90	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by UWSojourner) Then they're just a parts supplier and if you make "something" out of the parts and get yourself hurt ... well, it's your own darn fault. Sounds exactly like how the KISS was sold a couple of years ago... __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
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18th November 2007, 20:55	#14 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 556	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell) Sounds exactly like how the KISS was sold a couple of years ago... Was that the Kill Inessential Services Stupid unit? (running for cover now) Last edited by UWSojourner : 18th November 2007 at 22:22.
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18th November 2007, 21:37	#15 (permalink)
fredrik Rekodeko. Sweden Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 184	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) The electronics are a definately an area where complete knowledge is an asset, but the assembly/disassembly of the rig and the proper packing of the scrubber is just as important. Will the course be one or will there be 12 (or maybe more) different courses depending on how you want your Hammerhead CCR delivered? Solenoid, OTS and Radial scrubber Solenoid, OTS and Pre packed scrubber Solenoid, BMCL and Radial scrubber Solenoid, BMCL and Pre packed scrubber Mass flow, OTS and Radial scrubber Mass flow, OTS and Pre packed scrubber Mass flow, BMCL and Radial scrubber Mass flow, BMCL and Pre packed scrubber Solenoid, Mass flow, OTS and Radial scrubber Solenoid, Mass flow, OTS and Pre packed scrubber Solenoid, Mass flow, BMCL and Radial scrubber Solenoid, Mass flow, BMCL and Pre packed scrubber I have never done an ANDI course myself because they are not represented in my area but I understand they do very good education material, so do IART. (IANTD is embarrassing when it comes to this and I can´t understand they are still around). If you write the material I belive you get paid for it otherwise someone is ripping you of bigtime, unless ANDI is a non profit organisation. If you do the manual to the Hammerhead CCR, this is a deal between you and Juergensen Marine. When buying a life support gadeget worth $10.500 I belive you should expect to get a manual with it. About education I am NOT against it but I think the organisations have too much power and the way they are working at the moment they are not good for the manufacturs. The manufactures, who do all the work, have to put a lot of money into developing a unit, to market, to upgrade it and so on. I think the day when their unit economically has reached breakeven is a very happ day. What the education organisations does is to stop the sales for them because: If you want to move over to a differnt, but similiar, unit you not only have to pay for the unit, you also have to pay for another education on that specific unit. Sometimes that may be worthless to you. This makes you think twice before buying the new unit. It may not be that easy to find an instructor on that specific unit in your own area and you have to pay to get to a place where you can find one. This make s you think twice before buying the new unit. Maybe you want education in your own language. Then you have to find, if there is one, an instructor on that specific unit that also speaks your language. This makes you think twice before buying the new unit. Compared to the manufactures the education organisations have to do nothing (especially IANTD) to make some nice green. About PADI, I´ve heard since the day I started diving that it stands for "Put Another Dollar In". Everybody understands it´s a joke. It´s up to you if you wan´t to be certified "Flash Lite Diver" or not. You can still buy a Flash Lite without being certified. When we are talking about Rebreather education "Put Another Dollar In" it´s NOT a joke anymore. This is what I belive will cover the CCR training at most. MCCR, basic ECCR, basic Crossover from MCCR to ECCR Crossover from ECCR to MCCR Sport Depth to Technical Depth Those 5 courses should also cover any "liability". __________________ Fredrik Rekodeko, Sweden http://www.rekodeko.se Last edited by Decodiver : 18th November 2007 at 22:16. Reason: Formatted Quote
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20th November 2007, 13:38	#16 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 699	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Just a few thoughts here before I exit this discussion... The question of training on this unit is largely academic for me. As mentioned, I believe I've already assembled a unit that is functionally identical to the HH CCR (as near as I can tell). I can't really see the point of spending to have a factory version of what I'm already diving. This is not a criticism of the HH CCR - by all accounts and appearances it seems to be a very solid unit that utilized some excellent technologies. My hat's off to Kevin and the team. If this unit were available when I bought my meg, I would have bought it instead and paid for HH CCR training rather than my meg cert. But something here didn't quite sit right with me: Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Charlie, It has been a while since I have DIRECTLY paid for training.. but when it boils down to it I haven't gotten a free ride either.. I still have to work with a manufacturer, which usually involves travelling and lodging expenses, and taking valuable time off from money making endeavors.. WHen I am creating training materials it also require alot of time on the phone with said manufacturer.. If anything my time and costs usually end up considerably more than someone just taking a class.. Lets take the last Rebreather that I woorked on as an example, just creating the exams and going back and forth with paul on an almost daily bases I easily spent several times the time a class would cover and thats just a small portion of what I had to work on.. Then there is instructor procedures, power points and a training manual.. and then I still assisted with an entire diver/instructor program as well.. I had to spend private time with paul, and we had lots of additional work before and after each meetings with the student.. Much more work than a diver would ever be required to do.. In no way do I mean to impugn the effort that you put forward in developing training information of end-users and instructors. I've purchased ANDI materials even though I'm not an ANDI student as they go into great detail - far more so than just about any other materials I've seen. But ultimately, this effort is part of your work-product for ANDI and whatever business arrangement you have with a manufacturer. One presumes that this investment will be repaid through the corse of time as students and instructors are trained on these units (if it doesn't, I'd suggest your business model is broken). In my world, we would qualify this as the cost of doing business. High value and high quality work to be sure, but not quite the same as taking a class in order to purchase and use a unit. Anyway, good luck with the HH CCR and it's training. Tim
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20th November 2007, 13:53	#17 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,011	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) But ultimately, this effort is part of your work-product for ANDI and whatever business arrangement you have with a manufacturer. One presumes that this investment will be repaid through the corse of time as students and instructors are trained on these units (if it doesn't, I'd suggest your business model is broken). In my world, we would qualify this as the cost of doing business. High value and high quality work to be sure, but not quite the same as taking a class in order to purchase and use a unit. Anyway, good luck with the HH CCR and it's training. Tim Hello Tim, The expected paypack is definately in the form of training divers and instructors at a later date (selling manuals for limited products is not that profitable).. This has worked out with all but one manufacturer that I had a disagreement after the fact and don't train divers on nor do I expect to.. I also have seperate agreements seperate from ANDI to produce manufacturer materials.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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20th November 2007, 13:55	#18 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,011	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik) This is what I belive will cover the CCR training at most. MCCR, basic ECCR, basic Crossover from MCCR to ECCR Crossover from ECCR to MCCR Sport Depth to Technical Depth Those 5 courses should also cover any "liability". This will only come to be when manufactures decide it is acceptable.. Right now its in their ballpark as to the minimum requirements that they demand. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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20th November 2007, 14:08	#19 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 699	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Hello Tim, The expected paypack is definately in the form of training divers and instructors at a later date (selling manuals for limited products is not that profitable).. This has worked out with all but one manufacturer that I had a disagreement after the fact and don't train divers on nor do I expect to.. I also have seperate agreements seperate from ANDI to produce manufacturer materials.. That was my expectation. As mentioned, by all accounts the work you do is very good.. My point was more that you were comparing the effort you put in to developing materials (i.e. business development efforts) to that of a student taking a class (customer purchasing training and materials). Apples and oranges as they say.
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20th November 2007, 21:28	#20 (permalink)
fredrik Rekodeko. Sweden Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 184	Re: HammerHead CCR Training Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) Gang, I am sure that Kevin will sell lots of units because he has designed along with Golem Gear and excellent unit. Dive Safe... Mark This is not just about this unit, rather the education organisations. It has been talking about this erlier but of course the problem shines even brighter when a unit is released that got a O2 system that alot of divers already use without any education. __________________ Fredrik Rekodeko, Sweden http://www.rekodeko.se
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