Training agencies not policing their instructors

CCR-Wrecker · 1st November 2007, 22:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36)

As much as I hate to admit it, You are most likely correct. I still admire Freef for taking the stand though.

Absolutely, if I am ever in a situation like his, I hope I act the same way.

Andy

Ken West · 2nd November 2007, 01:02

I don't believe the problem of the poor instructor will ever be solved. There are to many people out there looking for the path of least resistance. I've often found that folks don't understand the value of the training they've recieved until well after a course when they encounter something outside the norm, either a real or a percieved emergency and deal with it.

I've seen it over and over again at the introductory levels of training. I also often see it in regards to gas blending, and regulator service.

We can bash all the training agencies we want, ask for tighter standards...or how about even standard standards. In the end we are responsible for our choices.

montyg · 2nd November 2007, 06:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36)

Kuddos to you man! Have some green!
I wish all of the dive instructors had as much backbone. Maybe the agencies would tighten things up and make it safer for all of us.

It is admirable, I agree.

The problem is: what do you do if you have resigned from all the agencies you teach for?

Currently I am an active instructor for 3 agencies, and I feel strongly about what is right and wrong, but it cost me major $$$, time and effort to get the certs I have.

I can't afford to switch everytime the agency won't act against violations.

I guess my point I am trying to make is that leaving an agency does not solve the problem.

So what's the solution? I'd say compell agencies to uphold the standards and values which they profess to subscribe to.

The question is how do we do it?

rgds
monty

**Freef** · 2nd November 2007, 07:41

I was in the position of not needing to teach, and it was a weekend hobby job for me.

But after hearing the class being told that they could use the rope as a visual reference on OW dive 4, and grab it if they needed to, when on dive 4 you have to do a free descent with no reference, and an agency letting this instrucior carry on teaching that way, I couldn't be associated with them any more.

Having poor instructors is bad enough, but refusing to track them down is criminal.

As has been said, there will be another PADI instructor along in a minute. I have taught for 4 schools, and it is only the last one that has really high standards.

**PhilSiswick** · 2nd November 2007, 15:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ken West)

I don't believe the problem of the poor instructor will ever be solved. There are to many people out there looking for the path of least resistance. I've often found that folks don't understand the value of the training they've recieved until well after a course when they encounter something outside the norm, either a real or a percieved emergency and deal with it.

I've seen it over and over again at the introductory levels of training. I also often see it in regards to gas blending, and regulator service.

We can bash all the training agencies we want, ask for tighter standards...or how about even standard standards. In the end we are responsible for our choices.

Hi Ken,

I agree with you on all counts. It is a matter of personal responsibility.

Sites like this are doing a good job of highlighting the potential pitfalls and pointing out things to consider when selecting an instructor to new Rebreather divers. That's an excellent thing.

Cheers,

db8us · 2nd November 2007, 18:35

For me it was clear that i give back my card when the agency started doing deep-air diving when all others slowly accepted that it is BS.

I could never have lived with that!

**Freef** · 3rd November 2007, 21:09

Another problem is how to spot a bad instructor.

Instructors, by definition, are supposed to be the experts. If you teach an OW course you can pretty much tell the trainees anything you like and they will believe you. Teaching DM [which used to be my favorite] was a whole different kettle of cucumbers.

What is to stop me forming the Freef School Of Dolphin Diving?

I could write my own course after consulting the ones out there already and start training divers.

FSDD cards may not be too well accepted to start with, but could Drager refuse to supply someone who was qualified to the standard that they want from PADI/TDI/IANTD et al?

**Freef** · 3rd November 2007, 21:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us)

For me it was clear that i give back my card when the agency started doing deep-air diving when all others slowly accepted that it is BS.

I could never have lived with that!

I think that PSAI still teach to 73m on air. All this talk about 'building up resistance' to narcosis is a load of old snorkels.

CCR-Wrecker · 3rd November 2007, 23:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef)

I think that PSAI still teach to 73m on air. All this talk about 'building up resistance' to narcosis is a load of old snorkels.

I don't think that's the purpose of the course. I took the course, I dive helium. I think "Narcosis management" is the best inducement to take a trimix course.
Just my opinion.

Regards,
Andy

BTW- I am a Narcosis management instructor PSAI 96

**Freef** · 4th November 2007, 08:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by CCR-Wrecker)

I don't think that's the purpose of the course. I took the course, I dive helium. I think "Narcosis management" is the best inducement to take a trimix course.
Just my opinion.

Regards,
Andy

BTW- I am a Narcosis management instructor PSAI 96

It probably came out a bit wrong in that I didn't split up the 73m course from narcosis managment statement. The high pO2's on air at 73m would put me off as well as being narked off by tits.

I can only manage narcosis by going up a bit. The three serious hits I have had occoured at 34m [after I had done about 100 30m-40m dives], 28m [felt one coming on, 150+ 30m-40m dives completed] and 50m [almost immediately on hitting this depth, and the only time I have ever dived deeper than 45m on air].

On each of the dives I was relaxed, in a benign environment, well rested and in the 34 & 50m dives with a very capable buddy. After the first one-which didn't clear until I was at 22m-I was aware of the symptoms.

The massive perceptual narrowing and need to concentrate on what were previously automatic tasks meant that if my buddies had needed my assistance I may not have been able to help as effectively as if I was 'sober'.

I think I know the historical reason why PSAI still teach to 73m, but it's a redundant qualification for pretty much any dive now that we have trimix.

If I could do a course so I could fart helium so my OC gas bills were less, I'd sign up for that one!

1st November 2007, 22:37	#11 (permalink)
CCR-Wrecker aka NY-Andy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Posts: 228	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36) As much as I hate to admit it, You are most likely correct. I still admire Freef for taking the stand though. Absolutely, if I am ever in a situation like his, I hope I act the same way. Andy __________________ "I know what you'll find, it's in your mind, it's what you want to see..." Ozzy
(Offline)

2nd November 2007, 01:02	#12 (permalink)
Ken West New Member Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 21	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors I don't believe the problem of the poor instructor will ever be solved. There are to many people out there looking for the path of least resistance. I've often found that folks don't understand the value of the training they've recieved until well after a course when they encounter something outside the norm, either a real or a percieved emergency and deal with it. I've seen it over and over again at the introductory levels of training. I also often see it in regards to gas blending, and regulator service. We can bash all the training agencies we want, ask for tighter standards...or how about even standard standards. In the end we are responsible for our choices.
(Offline)

2nd November 2007, 06:53	#13 (permalink)
montyg Monty Guest Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 242	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36) Kuddos to you man! Have some green! I wish all of the dive instructors had as much backbone. Maybe the agencies would tighten things up and make it safer for all of us. It is admirable, I agree. The problem is: what do you do if you have resigned from all the agencies you teach for? Currently I am an active instructor for 3 agencies, and I feel strongly about what is right and wrong, but it cost me major $$$, time and effort to get the certs I have. I can't afford to switch everytime the agency won't act against violations. I guess my point I am trying to make is that leaving an agency does not solve the problem. So what's the solution? I'd say compell agencies to uphold the standards and values which they profess to subscribe to. The question is how do we do it? rgds monty
(Online)

2nd November 2007, 07:41	#14 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,427	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors I was in the position of not needing to teach, and it was a weekend hobby job for me. But after hearing the class being told that they could use the rope as a visual reference on OW dive 4, and grab it if they needed to, when on dive 4 you have to do a free descent with no reference, and an agency letting this instrucior carry on teaching that way, I couldn't be associated with them any more. Having poor instructors is bad enough, but refusing to track them down is criminal. As has been said, there will be another PADI instructor along in a minute. I have taught for 4 schools, and it is only the last one that has really high standards. __________________ David. Diving the mahogany rebreather.
(Online)

2nd November 2007, 15:43	#15 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,095	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors Quote: (Originally Posted by Ken West) I don't believe the problem of the poor instructor will ever be solved. There are to many people out there looking for the path of least resistance. I've often found that folks don't understand the value of the training they've recieved until well after a course when they encounter something outside the norm, either a real or a percieved emergency and deal with it. I've seen it over and over again at the introductory levels of training. I also often see it in regards to gas blending, and regulator service. We can bash all the training agencies we want, ask for tighter standards...or how about even standard standards. In the end we are responsible for our choices. Hi Ken, I agree with you on all counts. It is a matter of personal responsibility. Sites like this are doing a good job of highlighting the potential pitfalls and pointing out things to consider when selecting an instructor to new Rebreather divers. That's an excellent thing. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

2nd November 2007, 18:35	#16 (permalink)
db8us Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 238	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors For me it was clear that i give back my card when the agency started doing deep-air diving when all others slowly accepted that it is BS. I could never have lived with that!
(Offline)

3rd November 2007, 21:09	#17 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,427	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors Another problem is how to spot a bad instructor. Instructors, by definition, are supposed to be the experts. If you teach an OW course you can pretty much tell the trainees anything you like and they will believe you. Teaching DM [which used to be my favorite] was a whole different kettle of cucumbers. What is to stop me forming the Freef School Of Dolphin Diving? I could write my own course after consulting the ones out there already and start training divers. FSDD cards may not be too well accepted to start with, but could Drager refuse to supply someone who was qualified to the standard that they want from PADI/TDI/IANTD et al? __________________ David. Diving the mahogany rebreather.
(Online)

3rd November 2007, 21:10	#18 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,427	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us) For me it was clear that i give back my card when the agency started doing deep-air diving when all others slowly accepted that it is BS. I could never have lived with that! I think that PSAI still teach to 73m on air. All this talk about 'building up resistance' to narcosis is a load of old snorkels. __________________ David. Diving the mahogany rebreather.
(Online)

3rd November 2007, 23:16	#19 (permalink)
CCR-Wrecker aka NY-Andy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Posts: 228	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef) I think that PSAI still teach to 73m on air. All this talk about 'building up resistance' to narcosis is a load of old snorkels. I don't think that's the purpose of the course. I took the course, I dive helium. I think "Narcosis management" is the best inducement to take a trimix course. Just my opinion. Regards, Andy BTW- I am a Narcosis management instructor PSAI 96 __________________ "I know what you'll find, it's in your mind, it's what you want to see..." Ozzy
(Offline)

4th November 2007, 08:11	#20 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,427	Re: Training agencies not policing their instructors Quote: (Originally Posted by CCR-Wrecker) I don't think that's the purpose of the course. I took the course, I dive helium. I think "Narcosis management" is the best inducement to take a trimix course. Just my opinion. Regards, Andy BTW- I am a Narcosis management instructor PSAI 96 It probably came out a bit wrong in that I didn't split up the 73m course from narcosis managment statement. The high pO2's on air at 73m would put me off as well as being narked off by tits. I can only manage narcosis by going up a bit. The three serious hits I have had occoured at 34m [after I had done about 100 30m-40m dives], 28m [felt one coming on, 150+ 30m-40m dives completed] and 50m [almost immediately on hitting this depth, and the only time I have ever dived deeper than 45m on air]. On each of the dives I was relaxed, in a benign environment, well rested and in the 34 & 50m dives with a very capable buddy. After the first one-which didn't clear until I was at 22m-I was aware of the symptoms. The massive perceptual narrowing and need to concentrate on what were previously automatic tasks meant that if my buddies had needed my assistance I may not have been able to help as effectively as if I was 'sober'. I think I know the historical reason why PSAI still teach to 73m, but it's a redundant qualification for pretty much any dive now that we have trimix. If I could do a course so I could fart helium so my OC gas bills were less, I'd sign up for that one! __________________ David. Diving the mahogany rebreather.
(Online)

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