Training, Instructors and divers

Nad

Sorry DrMike I began something related to your thread but trying another approach.

How do we show experience in OC? With the nr. of dives (besides of course many other stuff like night, deep, cave,etc).
How do we show experience in CC? With the nr. of hours (besides...as above).

Now I begin with a couple of non diving related examples:

SAILING (With several 1000 miles on the shoulder) I think be just bit more than a novice but it's enough for what I will explain.

In Switzerland, to become Skipper, you need (beside school for basic navigational skills and theory) to do 1000 miles.
Atlantic crossing it's not enough, too easy (and boring). Also a bottle with relative message if left out the coast of Spain can Cross the Atlantic.
You're asked to do Moorings and Berths, then night sailing, plotter etc.
But the main focus is on mooring, go in and out of an Harbour/Marina.

FLYING (Very few experience and just with little Choppers)
Most of the Problems are during TakeOff and Landing, this is why you do that so many time during the training. Besides of course the navigation, radio, etc where you need to fly. (Please experts do correct me if wrong ).
Main focus is TakeOff and Landing

Let's go back to our beloved CC.
An Instructor show 100 hours on his machine, made in a year or two. Wow not that bad. Let's see a bit deeper: he did 25 dives of 4 hours each.
For sure great dives maybe very deep maybe very deep inside a cave but still 25 dives!
This is the point: most of the problems occurs during descending and ascending, takeoff and landing, mooring. What happen in the middle is not the big deal, it is just the 20% of the possibility to have failures.
In the middle we have autopilot, electronic, etc we still need to be aware but more relaxing.
I'm not speaking about talents that could use the CC to do 5 dives a year and still be able to train on it but I'm speaking about all the rest.
Note: I'm between the rest!!
I give more points to an instructor that dive his units for 60 hours and 60 dives than someone that dive his unit for 200 hours for the same numbers of 40 dives.
I hope you can all see the point, my english is not the best in world.

So I summarize:
Let's begin to count our dive (as divers and instructors) with

__________________
The Impossible is often the Untried

Fun Under Pressure

I count my dive´s with numbers and hours. It is important for me to know how many hours i dive my unit. More important then the numbers of dive´s.

So i agree with you.

Cheers Markku

decoweenie

I have the opposite opinion.

No doubt that the starting of any dive is important since there are a lot of possibilities of making a mistake that carry on to the rest of the dive.

However, starting a more complex technical dive is a lot more difficult than starting a recreational dive. There are a lot more equipments and tasks to manage as well as synchronizing with your dive buddies as well since most likely you are diving in a more challenging dive site also. And those are usually the longer dive that produce higher hour/dive.

In addition, the longer dive (IMHO) has more risk. Simply a function of exposure to being underwater, especially if having a deco ceiling to boot.


Doing 100 x 1-hour/dive floating around a shallow reef does help to get someone more familiar with their unit, but (IMHO) not producing the same experience level as doing 33 x 3-hour/dive in more challenging condition.

Yes, I understand that the large percentage of the dive time of a long dive involves doing deco. However, I find that CCR units behave differently during long dive since there is more internal condensation moving around affecting the sensors, the physical tiredness affecting the diver's judgement, the cold/etc...

What you are saying is similar to saying someone with 1000 dives to 20m max in Red Sea condition would be more experienced than someone with 200 trimix dives in North Sea. I don't agree...

Nad

Yes, this is why I didn't take, for the moment, in considaration other variables like more tasks etc. I don't think I'm completly wrong but to give a bit of provocation maybe we can get something.

My example was bit far from the reality but still 10 trimix dives in the North sea are still just 10 dives if then this person dive OC or another unit.
However the point to have dive nrs and hours is a starting point, don't you think?

Nad

__________________
The Impossible is often the Untried

wedivebc

My hat is off to anyone from my neck of the woods who can log 100hrs in 20 dives. In fact anyone who does more than 2 hour dives around here is pretty impressive. I just think there are too many variables to make a broad judgement like that.

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Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die

Dsix36

IMHO logging the number of dives and the duration of the dives will give an indication of the level of experience a CCR diver has. Of course all of the variables (depth, temperature, deco time, etc) will be just as much of an indication.

Without a complete dive profile of each dive it is just too much speculation as to the abilities and knowledge of the diver.

By the way, I count both number of dives and dive hours

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THE MORE THAT I LEARN, THE MORE THAT I STILL NEED TO LEARN!!!!!!

caveseeker7

Nad and Phi are both correct IMHO, it just depends on what training you're looking for.

Obviously the instructor with 100 single hour dives on shallow reefs would not be the first choice for trimix/extended range/cave/deep wreck penetration training.

On the other hand, if the 3+hr/33 dives instructor spend all his time in shallow fresh water caves he's probably not the guy I want to get deep wreck training in the open ocean from, either.

Choose your instructor wisely, make sure he'll be able to teach what need and want to know.
Nothing wrong getting trained by a guy on a Dolphin along a pretty reef who doesn't have a single 3 hr dive if that's the diving you do yourself and the instructor is a good one to start out with.

If you know you'll be heading into caves, deep wrecks and such, by all means, pick the instructor who does just that. Chances are you'll learn form his experience, even during basic training, that'll be helpfull down the road.

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Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

Dsix36

All of this and then some.

Talk to other instructors, former students, and interview the potential instructor. Do the research for an instructor like you would for a Rebreather and get what is right for you.

__________________
THE MORE THAT I LEARN, THE MORE THAT I STILL NEED TO LEARN!!!!!!