Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one...

Drmike · 28th October 2007, 16:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

To Be honest Mike I have been banging my drum on this for a while now and no one seems to listen. I will give you a prime example, about two years ago Myself and a group of instructors that represented both IANTD and TDI (some of these instructors are on this board) sat with one of the manufactors and asked him to do something about some of the issues I have been on about but in particular some training issues and prices waring among instructors, Do you know what he said? sorry...............end of conversation!!

If the mnf womnt do it then we should.

Do you think the issue is theres too many instructors? fighting on cost?
what ideas did you have?

How about we create a RBW approved list of instructors? We (the community of users) could be responsible for selecting/reviewing and approving instructors who show excellant training standards - hell we could give all instructors a rating open for all to see.

do you think something like that may help?

maybe to review inst we interview their ex students with technical questions (and keep popularity out of the review)

id be happy to help out where i can.

Clearly (and this has been proven to me over and over again) we cant rely on the training agencies to police their instructors.

there are some very excellant instructors - but theres an awful lot of trash - trouble is the student has no way to choose and the good insytructors have no way to 'stand out' from all the trash. Maybe an 'independant instructor review group' such as ourselves can do that job??

maybe a mod can split this into a new thread?

dave t · 28th October 2007, 16:54

There are certinally too many instructors in the UK and to get work they undercut, like give the breather away at trade price and give a free course!!! just to get work. The going rate for a mod 1 course in the UK is about £500 quid, if you have one student or even maybe two by the time you take into account complying with HSE requirements, certs, gas,travelling inst salary/expenses there is not a lot left to make a living. If I do a course it takes 5-6 days, If I comply with HSE I need a two man team, maybe three. Some courses I have heard about take 3 days and do not comply with HSE ruling or even meet agency standards but the student gets his course for 200 quid instead of 500 and he only needs two days off work instead of 5 so why should he pay top dollar when he can get it cut price and as hes a beginner how does he know if the course is complete or not.

maybe we should at least put up on here course content, at least then prospective students can see if they are getting their money's worth but I guess by the time they get here most are already "trained" arnt they?

***Decodiver*** · 28th October 2007, 17:20

I have no problem with anyone speaking to any of my students, in fact I frequently suggest potential students do just that.

There are bad instructors, I see that when I put people through Mod 1 skills on day one of Mod 2/3 and get told what they did not learn.

However ther is a sea-change, I feel it in my water that certain agencies are about to go pro-active!!

As for under-cutters, pay peanuts, get Monkeys...................

cheers,

Dave Cooper.

PS Mike how you getting on with those mesh inserts for the Boris OPV? I still want one.

***schford*** · 28th October 2007, 17:22

I am happy to create a new section similiar to the Rebreather friendly destinations for instructors and tied into the world map if people think it will help.

I have also nearly finished an article on the importance of the right instructor and how you find them which I will publish after DEMA.

Stuart

Dsix36 · 28th October 2007, 17:24

My 2 cents worth

IMHO it would be very good for a prospective student to have a side by side comparison on intructors with reviews from former students. It is a complex decision to make and it would be nice to verify that you will get the proper training to stay alive and deal with all contingincies.

Not all of us were trained before we joined forum. I was researching (here and elswere also) for over 2 years before I decided on a unit and instructor. I believe I made a good and informed decision, but a RBW review would have made it a lot quicker and easier (at least the intruction part anyway).

decoweenie · 28th October 2007, 19:59

If using a poll/interview of forum members to determine the instructor's rating levels, good Rebreather instructors who are:

active on the Internet and dive forums (especially RBW).
have students who are active on the Internet and dive forums (especially RBW).

will benefits more than those who don't.

zepp · 28th October 2007, 20:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

I have no problem with anyone speaking to any of my students, in fact I frequently suggest potential students do just that.....

The first thing I learnt was "Coffee and bacon buttie"

The second was "Listen NOW !! else this thing will kill you!"

The last thing I was told was " You now need to go dive it, you are now qualified to go ahead and learn without me watching over you. DONT consider yourself any more than a beginner. Take things slowly"

Nad · 28th October 2007, 21:12

I'm not really sure that this would help much or be correct and I give you an example:

Phil Short isn't on any forum and Tom Mount just a little bit, we can't ban them just for that.
An instructor could be good in the eyes of his students but not for instructors of the concurrence and so on.

It could be useful, eventually, to write a list of skills to follow during a course. Every new Rebreather diver could compare what he did and what he should have done. At this point he could have or give a judgement.

Trust instructors with good experience (many time isn't enough) not those that propose themself to be the first to have a new unit...

Nad

***schford*** · 28th October 2007, 21:17

But we could have a list of Instructors (they dont have to be members)...

York · 28th October 2007, 21:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

If using a poll/interview of forum members to determine the instructor's rating levels, good Rebreather instructors who are:

active on the Internet and dive forums (especially RBW).
have students who are active on the Internet and dive forums (especially RBW).

will benefits more than those who don't.

Not sure about those two, Phi. I see three types of people on internet fori: those who know a lot, those who understand a lot, and those who write a lot. Only in the rarest of occasions do you find these three types in one person. I personally would preferr an instructor combining the former two types.

J.

28th October 2007, 16:39	#1 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) To Be honest Mike I have been banging my drum on this for a while now and no one seems to listen. I will give you a prime example, about two years ago Myself and a group of instructors that represented both IANTD and TDI (some of these instructors are on this board) sat with one of the manufactors and asked him to do something about some of the issues I have been on about but in particular some training issues and prices waring among instructors, Do you know what he said? sorry...............end of conversation!! If the mnf womnt do it then we should. Do you think the issue is theres too many instructors? fighting on cost? what ideas did you have? How about we create a RBW approved list of instructors? We (the community of users) could be responsible for selecting/reviewing and approving instructors who show excellant training standards - hell we could give all instructors a rating open for all to see. do you think something like that may help? maybe to review inst we interview their ex students with technical questions (and keep popularity out of the review) id be happy to help out where i can. Clearly (and this has been proven to me over and over again) we cant rely on the training agencies to police their instructors. there are some very excellant instructors - but theres an awful lot of trash - trouble is the student has no way to choose and the good insytructors have no way to 'stand out' from all the trash. Maybe an 'independant instructor review group' such as ourselves can do that job?? maybe a mod can split this into a new thread? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 28th October 2007 at 16:48.
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28th October 2007, 16:54	#2 (permalink)
dave t RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 663	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents There are certinally too many instructors in the UK and to get work they undercut, like give the breather away at trade price and give a free course!!! just to get work. The going rate for a mod 1 course in the UK is about £500 quid, if you have one student or even maybe two by the time you take into account complying with HSE requirements, certs, gas,travelling inst salary/expenses there is not a lot left to make a living. If I do a course it takes 5-6 days, If I comply with HSE I need a two man team, maybe three. Some courses I have heard about take 3 days and do not comply with HSE ruling or even meet agency standards but the student gets his course for 200 quid instead of 500 and he only needs two days off work instead of 5 so why should he pay top dollar when he can get it cut price and as hes a beginner how does he know if the course is complete or not. maybe we should at least put up on here course content, at least then prospective students can see if they are getting their money's worth but I guess by the time they get here most are already "trained" arnt they?
(Online)

28th October 2007, 17:20	#3 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,194	Re: Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one... I have no problem with anyone speaking to any of my students, in fact I frequently suggest potential students do just that. There are bad instructors, I see that when I put people through Mod 1 skills on day one of Mod 2/3 and get told what they did not learn. However ther is a sea-change, I feel it in my water that certain agencies are about to go pro-active!! As for under-cutters, pay peanuts, get Monkeys................... cheers, Dave Cooper. PS Mike how you getting on with those mesh inserts for the Boris OPV? I still want one. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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28th October 2007, 17:22	#4 (permalink)
*schford* RBW Founder Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Re: Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one... I am happy to create a new section similiar to the Rebreather friendly destinations for instructors and tied into the world map if people think it will help. I have also nearly finished an article on the importance of the right instructor and how you find them which I will publish after DEMA. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of RBW is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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28th October 2007, 17:24	#5 (permalink)
Dsix36 Going Down? Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Deerfield Beach, Florida Posts: 1,154	Re: Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one... My 2 cents worth IMHO it would be very good for a prospective student to have a side by side comparison on intructors with reviews from former students. It is a complex decision to make and it would be nice to verify that you will get the proper training to stay alive and deal with all contingincies. Not all of us were trained before we joined forum. I was researching (here and elswere also) for over 2 years before I decided on a unit and instructor. I believe I made a good and informed decision, but a RBW review would have made it a lot quicker and easier (at least the intruction part anyway). __________________ THE MORE THAT I LEARN, THE MORE THAT I STILL NEED TO LEARN!!!!!!
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28th October 2007, 19:59	#6 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one... If using a poll/interview of forum members to determine the instructor's rating levels, good Rebreather instructors who are: active on the Internet and dive forums (especially RBW). have students who are active on the Internet and dive forums (especially RBW). will benefits more than those who don't.
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28th October 2007, 20:28	#7 (permalink)
zepp "Dyson with Death" daddy Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: midlands Posts: 284	Re: Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one... Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) I have no problem with anyone speaking to any of my students, in fact I frequently suggest potential students do just that..... The first thing I learnt was "Coffee and bacon buttie" The second was "Listen NOW !! else this thing will kill you!" The last thing I was told was " You now need to go dive it, you are now qualified to go ahead and learn without me watching over you. DONT consider yourself any more than a beginner. Take things slowly" __________________ I'm not a bad person.....HONEST my homebuild photos http://www.rebreatherworld.com/photo...ery.php/cat/48 CLASSIC KISS #052/shearwater The Dyson is back
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28th October 2007, 21:12	#8 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 1,014	Re: Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one... I'm not really sure that this would help much or be correct and I give you an example: Phil Short isn't on any forum and Tom Mount just a little bit, we can't ban them just for that. An instructor could be good in the eyes of his students but not for instructors of the concurrence and so on. It could be useful, eventually, to write a list of skills to follow during a course. Every new Rebreather diver could compare what he did and what he should have done. At this point he could have or give a judgement. Trust instructors with good experience (many time isn't enough) not those that propose themself to be the first to have a new unit... Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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28th October 2007, 21:17	#9 (permalink)
*schford* RBW Founder Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,564	Re: Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one... But we could have a list of Instructors (they dont have to be members)... __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of RBW is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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28th October 2007, 21:18	#10 (permalink)
York probubbly not Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 118	Re: Instructors & how RBW can help you choose one... Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) If using a poll/interview of forum members to determine the instructor's rating levels, good Rebreather instructors who are: active on the Internet and dive forums (especially RBW). have students who are active on the Internet and dive forums (especially RBW). will benefits more than those who don't. Not sure about those two, Phi. I see three types of people on internet fori: those who know a lot, those who understand a lot, and those who write a lot. Only in the rarest of occasions do you find these three types in one person. I personally would preferr an instructor combining the former two types. J.
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