Rebreather evolution drawback

fin

I read recently in a thread about MEG Copis training that there are two different training courses concerning different versions of a product and I started wondering for how long this will go on with rebreather training.
There is no doubt that it is impossible to put all the course material of a virtual standard rebreather to cover all types of products, but this policy is also dragging us back creating course types for every product.
This maximizes products' differences from the publics perspective and is creating small communities. Being divided to many groups our Rebreather minority looses the chance to keep up with the rest of the technical party.
Many will be happy with that but at long term this is holding safety down and prices up.
I don't want to believe that there is an instructor that signs an eccr certificate to a diver that has not mastered the manual mode (mccr) of a unit, so I think its about time for course directors (most of them cooperating with the majority of organizations) to figure out some standards to categorize products according to specs.
I think this would be quite productive for the training side of RBs. It is not the manufactures job to do it and it will certainly open space for comparisons and objective evaluation of both divers and units.

If we accept the fact that every product requires special training we lead to isolation and confusion.
A similar controversy was going on in OC industry between 1950 and 1975 between reg design (one or to phases). Remember how hard Cousteau's Le Spirotechnique fought todays OC reg design (E.R. Cross Ted Eldred 1951) to keep their 1942 "twin-hose" design alive till 80s. But even using the huge filmmaking publicity did not manage to stop the superior design to prevail.
Iis time to let natural selection take over.
Share your thoughts please. Am I wrong?

decoweenie

You are not (entirely) wrong.

However, diving a KISS (i.e. mCCR) requires a different additional skillset than just diving an eCCR IMHO speaking as a long time KISS diver as well as a m/eCCR instructor.

An eCCR instructor could teach any mCCR course effectively enough for the student to start diving his/her unit, but again IMHO, will not be able to impart a lot of the personal experience gained from lots of diving the mCCR unit himself.

My recommendation is... to take a mCCR course from the instructor who dives said unit almost exclusively instead of one dives an eCCR almost exclusively for the most amount of knowledge to be gained.

Same for, as an example, taking a Vision course from an instructor who could teach Vision and KISS units but dives the KISS almost exclusively himself.

In short, you gain more from the "specialist" (for lack of a better word).

Scubascooby

Wouldl it not be possible to consolidate the mCCR courses into one. Assuming the owner is smart enough to read the manual and become familiar with the foibles of their own unit. I know this is a bisk"ask" for some people ;-)

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decoweenie

I agree with that.

IMHO, the differences between mCCR units are very minimal and mostly in the O2 monitoring devices (i.e. electronic, HUD, etc) plus a tad on scrubber set-up/etc that an additional 15-min session should be adequate to focus on.

In general, diving a KISS unit is no different than diving a rEvo or a Pelagian - especially for an experienced mCCR diver. It is similar to someone going from diving a Classic Inspiration to the Vision electronic.

cramerdn

Sure would be nice if there was a Core curriculum and then a shorter unit specific class. Your first Rebreather course could include the Core and then all you need do is take the unit specific parts of any substancially differant machine. Do we really need to answer questions about the history of rebreathers every time we take a new cert? (or ever for that matter)

The core need only be class room lectures and practical excersises, maybe even completeable on line.

Just like learning to fly. Once you have a pilots licence for an airplane they don't make you repeat ground school for helicopters.

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Steve

Normally we agree on pretty well everything but in this case it seems we are on different paths.

Personally I think the diving skills are the same on every CCR out there, that stuff is easy when your instructor has done a root cause analysis of potential hazards and teaches from that standpoint. Most haven't in my experience.

Where each unit needs a unique course is in the preparation, pros and cons, tricks and tips and unique operational characteristics. Experience and I mean real experience is worth it's weight in gold when it comes to learning what makes each unit tick.

To me a unified course implies that any instructor can teach on any unit and add the unique bits in as required, and I firmly believe this to be dangerously and naively false. I fully appreciate others hold different opinions.

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decoweenie

I am not sure we are actually disagreeing...

I meant to agree with the point that there could be a single CORE course for mCCR in general, but it would have to include a special section focusing on the unit in question.

That precludes an instructor from teaching all mCCR units.

I notice there are a lot of instructors teaching most of the units available with what I would classify as minimal experience on some of the units. Personally, I would never take a course from those instructors on any unit they don't dive regularly (majority of the time) eventhough they are certified to teach.

Of course, same as you, I appreciate others having different opinions as well...

Mark Chase

In the UK if you take a manual car test you can drive a manual or an automatic.

It should be the same with CCR if your course included running the unit manually (as TDI Mod1 for the Inspo does) then i can see absolutely no point in re doing the course to enable you to dive a manual CCR on what is basically the same principle with less work involved.

The other way around MCCR to ECCR its even easier

Only separate course for me would be PSCR like the RB80 which is a fundamentally different beast.


MCCR / ECCR it doesn't matter, you just have to know your PP02 and be able to alter it.

Some people want courses. Fine let them have them, but its annoying the rest of us are forced to do them. Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed and learned from every course I have ever done but it is such a monumental pain in the arse to find time / money to do them that I do get frustrated when I feel they are not absolutely necessary.




ATB

Mark Chase

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Scubascooby

I have a slightly related problem. Being OC qualified on hypoxic trimix I am not sure quite how much I will learn from the KISS trimix course.

Bail-out is essentially similar to OC trimix apart from the lack of back gas to fall back on in the absence of travel or deco gases.

I know some people come to CC diving with relatively little diving experience so such courses might be useful to some but will I really benefit from a week of Rebreather trimix course ?

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"dove" is NOT the past tense of "dive"

Better off OUT of the EU !

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diverreb

You train for the unit you want to start with. Learn the in's & out's of both that unit & the basics of the overall technology. Then as I understand it, cross-over courses are about half the price. Isn't that pretty much the way the system is now?

Muscle memory from constant drills & practice is stressed as a way to keep safe in an emergency. I couldn't imagine someone handing me a Meg and saying...You already dive an ECCR..... read the manual & go diving.

I'd want a pretty comprehensive class before diving the unit.

While a basic classroom course as a generic intro to rebreather diving may be of interest, I don't see where any money or time would be saved over the current system of basic skills along with training on a specific unit, then taking crossover classes if you want to dive another.

Richie