MOD 2 and MOD 3

tflaris · 28th August 2007, 22:38

What's all involved in Normoxic and Hypoxic Training. Anyone fill me in on what I might expect?

Thanks

aki · 28th August 2007, 22:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by tflaris)

What's all involved in Normoxic and Hypoxic Training. Anyone fill me in on what I might expect?

Thanks

This might help to get an idea what can be expected (pages 76-78 & 83-84).

***jradomski*** · 29th August 2007, 08:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by tflaris)

What's all involved in Normoxic and Hypoxic Training. Anyone fill me in on what I might expect?

Thanks

It really depends on the Agency and the instructor.. The programs vary tremendously..

For example I Teach ANDI's Trimix program.. The shallowest dive we can count is 50m (thats usually an evaluation dive) after that all dives are 60m+ up to 100m where conditions permit.. Run times of up to 4 hours should be expected.. 10+ dives is the norm for the program..

The normixic program ANDI teaches is additional to the Technical rebreather program but can be combined as a single class.. Depending on the prioir certifications 6-12 dives should be expected with decos up to 45 minutes..

kieranu · 29th August 2007, 08:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

It really depends on the Agency and the instructor.. The programs vary tremendously..

For example I Teach ANDI's Trimix program.. The shallowest dive we can count is 50m (thats usually an evaluation dive) after that all dives are 60m+ up to 100m where conditions permit.. Run times of up to 4 hours should be expected.. 10+ dives is the norm for the program..

As you say, agency and instructor vary the programs tremendously. Judging from the IANTD standards linked to in the previous post, for full trimix, the shallowest dive to count is 39m while only one need be 60m or deeper and there doesn't seem to be a requirement for decompression (though minimum in-water times would indicate decompression would likely be required).

TDI seem to have a similar standard though two dives need to be 70m or deeper and decompression is specified as a requirement for most of the dives

Both seem to require a minimum of 6 or 7 dives for the program.

***jradomski*** · 29th August 2007, 09:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

As you say, agency and instructor vary the programs tremendously. Judging from the IANTD standards linked to in the previous post, for full trimix, the shallowest dive to count is 39m while only one need be 60m or deeper and there doesn't seem to be a requirement for decompression (though minimum in-water times would indicate decompression would likely be required).

TDI seem to have a similar standard though two dives need to be 70m or deeper and decompression is specified as a requirement for most of the dives

Both seem to require a minimum of 6 or 7 dives for the program.

The IANTD program can be as short as TWO dives for those with OC full trimix rating (or 3 dives with a normoxic OC rating).. Sounds a bit short to me and no requirement for a CCR decompression class..

For comparison, say I had an OC FUll trimix diver come to me for Full trimix CCR training,
We would have to do 4 dives for Technical Rebreather diver, then at least 6 dives for FUll trimix.... for someone with a "normixic" rating we would have to add atleast 4 more dives..

BTW 39m is not 130fsw its 127fsw..

With the specification of run times and not required deco times, games can be played by multi-leveling a dive and putting in long short shallow legs, you can in theory just stay ahead of the ceiling and never enter deco.. I know most instructors probably try to do the right thing but without black and white limits the system can be abused.

kieranu · 29th August 2007, 10:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

BTW 39m is not 130fsw its 127fsw..

Since you're being pedantic, 39msw is actually 128fsw.

Other than that, I'm sure you're absolutely right.

***jradomski*** · 29th August 2007, 10:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

Since you're being pedantic, 39msw is actually 128fsw.

Other than that, I'm sure you're absolutely right.

actually the conversion is 3.2568 fsw per msw (not 3.280839895 thats length not pressure)
pressure conversion (which is what depth is a unit of pressure NOT distance) = 127.0152
using the incorrect unit conversion (length) its 127.952755906

kieranu · 29th August 2007, 11:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

actually the conversion is 3.2568 fsw per msw (not 3.280839895 thats length not pressure)
pressure conversion (which is what depth is a unit of pressure NOT distance) = 127.0152
using the incorrect unit conversion (length) its 127.952755906

Ah, gotcha - or is it 3.2633 - either way, I guess its closer to 127 but it would seem that the common convention at any rate is to round to one decimal place and thats what gets us to 129 fsw - not that it matters, I'm sure it can't make a huge impact on the deco obligation and even then you're going to get wildly different times depending on what algorithm you use or conservatism you set.

***jradomski*** · 29th August 2007, 11:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

Ah, gotcha - or is it 3.2633 - either way, I guess its closer to 127 but it would seem that the common convention at any rate is to round to one decimal place and thats what gets us to 129 fsw - not that it matters, I'm sure it can't make a huge impact on the deco obligation and even then you're going to get wildly different times depending on what algorithm you use or conservatism you set.

3.2633 is used if you define 1 ata as 33.066fsw, 3.2568 when 1ata is defined as 33.0 fsw (the more common definition)..

I think you have a typo.. Using length conversions would round to 128fsw, both pressure conversions would round to 127

kieranu · 29th August 2007, 11:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I think you have a typo.. Using length conversions would round to 128fsw, both pressure conversions would round to 127

Nah, you just misread it or I miswrote it

I said that either way the pressure conversions would be on the right side of 127fsw, but that the common convention was to round the conversion rate to a single decimal point e.g 3.3, hence 39 * 3.3 = 128.7 (129fsw)

28th August 2007, 22:38	#1 (permalink)
tflaris God save the Queen Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Neptune Beach, Florida Posts: 274	MOD 2 and MOD 3 What's all involved in Normoxic and Hypoxic Training. Anyone fill me in on what I might expect? Thanks __________________ "Except for this one, I have come to the conclusion that all generalizations are false" -Jim Hayes
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28th August 2007, 22:50	#2 (permalink)
aki RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Stockholm. Sweden Posts: 119	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by tflaris) What's all involved in Normoxic and Hypoxic Training. Anyone fill me in on what I might expect? Thanks This might help to get an idea what can be expected (pages 76-78 & 83-84). __________________ May the sorb be with you
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29th August 2007, 08:33	#3 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by tflaris) What's all involved in Normoxic and Hypoxic Training. Anyone fill me in on what I might expect? Thanks It really depends on the Agency and the instructor.. The programs vary tremendously.. For example I Teach ANDI's Trimix program.. The shallowest dive we can count is 50m (thats usually an evaluation dive) after that all dives are 60m+ up to 100m where conditions permit.. Run times of up to 4 hours should be expected.. 10+ dives is the norm for the program.. The normixic program ANDI teaches is additional to the Technical rebreather program but can be combined as a single class.. Depending on the prioir certifications 6-12 dives should be expected with decos up to 45 minutes.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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29th August 2007, 08:51	#4 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) It really depends on the Agency and the instructor.. The programs vary tremendously.. For example I Teach ANDI's Trimix program.. The shallowest dive we can count is 50m (thats usually an evaluation dive) after that all dives are 60m+ up to 100m where conditions permit.. Run times of up to 4 hours should be expected.. 10+ dives is the norm for the program.. As you say, agency and instructor vary the programs tremendously. Judging from the IANTD standards linked to in the previous post, for full trimix, the shallowest dive to count is 39m while only one need be 60m or deeper and there doesn't seem to be a requirement for decompression (though minimum in-water times would indicate decompression would likely be required). TDI seem to have a similar standard though two dives need to be 70m or deeper and decompression is specified as a requirement for most of the dives Both seem to require a minimum of 6 or 7 dives for the program.
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29th August 2007, 09:23	#5 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) As you say, agency and instructor vary the programs tremendously. Judging from the IANTD standards linked to in the previous post, for full trimix, the shallowest dive to count is 39m while only one need be 60m or deeper and there doesn't seem to be a requirement for decompression (though minimum in-water times would indicate decompression would likely be required). TDI seem to have a similar standard though two dives need to be 70m or deeper and decompression is specified as a requirement for most of the dives Both seem to require a minimum of 6 or 7 dives for the program. The IANTD program can be as short as TWO dives for those with OC full trimix rating (or 3 dives with a normoxic OC rating).. Sounds a bit short to me and no requirement for a CCR decompression class.. For comparison, say I had an OC FUll trimix diver come to me for Full trimix CCR training, We would have to do 4 dives for Technical Rebreather diver, then at least 6 dives for FUll trimix.... for someone with a "normixic" rating we would have to add atleast 4 more dives.. BTW 39m is not 130fsw its 127fsw.. With the specification of run times and not required deco times, games can be played by multi-leveling a dive and putting in long short shallow legs, you can in theory just stay ahead of the ceiling and never enter deco.. I know most instructors probably try to do the right thing but without black and white limits the system can be abused. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 29th August 2007 at 09:36.
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29th August 2007, 10:18	#6 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) BTW 39m is not 130fsw its 127fsw.. Since you're being pedantic, 39msw is actually 128fsw. Other than that, I'm sure you're absolutely right.
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29th August 2007, 10:57	#7 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) Since you're being pedantic, 39msw is actually 128fsw. Other than that, I'm sure you're absolutely right. actually the conversion is 3.2568 fsw per msw (not 3.280839895 thats length not pressure) pressure conversion (which is what depth is a unit of pressure NOT distance) = 127.0152 using the incorrect unit conversion (length) its 127.952755906 __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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29th August 2007, 11:28	#8 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) actually the conversion is 3.2568 fsw per msw (not 3.280839895 thats length not pressure) pressure conversion (which is what depth is a unit of pressure NOT distance) = 127.0152 using the incorrect unit conversion (length) its 127.952755906 Ah, gotcha - or is it 3.2633 - either way, I guess its closer to 127 but it would seem that the common convention at any rate is to round to one decimal place and thats what gets us to 129 fsw - not that it matters, I'm sure it can't make a huge impact on the deco obligation and even then you're going to get wildly different times depending on what algorithm you use or conservatism you set.
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29th August 2007, 11:37	#9 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) Ah, gotcha - or is it 3.2633 - either way, I guess its closer to 127 but it would seem that the common convention at any rate is to round to one decimal place and thats what gets us to 129 fsw - not that it matters, I'm sure it can't make a huge impact on the deco obligation and even then you're going to get wildly different times depending on what algorithm you use or conservatism you set. 3.2633 is used if you define 1 ata as 33.066fsw, 3.2568 when 1ata is defined as 33.0 fsw (the more common definition).. I think you have a typo.. Using length conversions would round to 128fsw, both pressure conversions would round to 127 __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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29th August 2007, 11:44	#10 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: MOD 2 and MOD 3 Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I think you have a typo.. Using length conversions would round to 128fsw, both pressure conversions would round to 127 Nah, you just misread it or I miswrote it I said that either way the pressure conversions would be on the right side of 127fsw, but that the common convention was to round the conversion rate to a single decimal point e.g 3.3, hence 39 * 3.3 = 128.7 (129fsw)
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