How often do you practise emergency procedures ?

**jmurba** · 30th July 2007, 15:37

Hi all,

A couple of days ago I proposed some friends to get down to 50m, to drown our circuit (our sensors are 12 months and we are about to change them), to switch to OC and to test a complete OC ascent procedure deploying the marker boy, swithching the computer to oc mode, switchin oc gases in the way up etc...

I was replied ho , no use less, dangerous etc etc...

Is it stupid to practise emergency procedures in nearly real conditions ?

Is it more dangerous then usefull ?

is it better to practise in shallow zone ??

regards

jean mi

steveharriss · 30th July 2007, 16:17

If I read you correctly you intend to fully flood your loop at 50m as a practice? I haven't much experience but it sounds extremely dodgy to me. I have practiced dealing with a loop flood...but that is under controlled conditions at a depth that if all went pear shaped I could still get myself to the surface without too much drama, and didn't involve actually filling the unit to the brim and making myself extremely negatively buoyant!.

My understanding was that the practice was to build muscle memory and motor skills rather than placing yourself in potential danger.

I'm sure an instructor will be along to put me right shortly though

Apart from that it all sounded fine...

decoweenie · 30th July 2007, 16:43

If you are taking a trimix CCR course, you would be doing such an exercise (minus the actual flooding of the unit).

However, depending on the instructor and agency, you would also have (some / most of) the following safety factors:

additional safety divers (instructors / divemasters) to assist
additional safety gas other than those carry by the divers
in a more controlled dive location (for visual reference, for example)
simulate deco for a longer BT than actual
etc...

I don't recommend actually flood your unit since it could have residual affect on your electronic even after cleaning - as well as adding additional risk.

At the end of the day, just remember that it is an exercise in controlled environment with the objective for the divers to learn certain skillset - not to see if you could actually survive it.

Once you have done one, you could always push for more task loading on the following one to improve on your skillset. No need to go for the whole she-bang on the first run.

Plan well, have fun and dive safe!

Paul Evans · 30th July 2007, 17:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

I don't recommend actually flood your unit since it could have residual affect on your electronic even after cleaning - as well as adding additional risk.

At the end of the day, just remember that it is an exercise in controlled environment with the objective for the divers to learn certain skillset - not to see if you could actually survive it.

Once you have done one, you could always push for more task loading on the following one to improve on your skillset. No need to go for the whole she-bang on the first run.

Sounds spot on to me.

Don't do it all at once, add drills together over a series of dives building up to the faluire you want to simulate. Personnaly I would,nt flood the loop like that.

Ben Field · 30th July 2007, 21:20

Why not (in shallow, controlled, double-buddied enviroment) have a buddy hand you 8lbs'ish of lead (to simulate flood) and shut your loop off... you have to do everything after that?

Actually flooding the loop sounds too realistic to me.

**jmurba** · 30th July 2007, 21:58

Hi,

hem...well as you know I will never undertake any CCR course, if one day you learn my death on this forum you will be able to say "this guy never met any ccr instructor if he had been reasonnable he would still be here to discuss with us".
I hope you will never be able to say that (((-:
You know the first thing I did after my firsts ccr dives was to test safety procedures (diluant rebreathing, oc swicth from 40m etc)
So far I am still there but ok I should have been trained, every body should of course

well apart from that it is interresting to wonder if we testing our skills in reall condition is resonnable or if it is better to test in easy conditions.

the idea of doing this with an assistant is wise, of couse I wanted to simulate the a "long" deco and not an obligatory one.

I am gonna think of it.

regards

jean mi

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

If you are taking a trimix CCR course, you would be doing such an exercise (minus the actual flooding of the unit).

However, depending on the instructor and agency, you would also have (some / most of) the following safety factors:

additional safety divers (instructors / divemasters) to assist
additional safety gas other than those carry by the divers
in a more controlled dive location (for visual reference, for example)
simulate deco for a longer BT than actual
etc...

I don't recommend actually flood your unit since it could have residual affect on your electronic even after cleaning - as well as adding additional risk.

At the end of the day, just remember that it is an exercise in controlled environment with the objective for the divers to learn certain skillset - not to see if you could actually survive it.

Once you have done one, you could always push for more task loading on the following one to improve on your skillset. No need to go for the whole she-bang on the first run.

Plan well, have fun and dive safe!

**jmurba** · 30th July 2007, 22:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by steveharriss)

If I read you correctly you intend to fully flood your loop at 50m as a practice? I haven't much experience but it sounds extremely dodgy to me. I have practiced dealing with a loop flood...but that is under controlled conditions at a depth that if all went pear shaped I could still get myself to the surface without too much drama, and didn't involve actually filling the unit to the brim and making myself extremely negatively buoyant!.

My understanding was that the practice was to build muscle memory and motor skills rather than placing yourself in potential danger.

I'm sure an instructor will be along to put me right shortly though

Apart from that it all sounded fine...

Well so it seems that it is not a good idea...on the ther hand if I don't try I will never know....

**jmurba** · 30th July 2007, 22:20

Phi,

just an other bit of advice please, i fact what I really wonder is : will I have enough bottom gas to ascent from the bottom to my travel mix depth ?
I know my RMV, I can take safety margins but will It be enough the D day under sress and with a floaded loop.

My bottom gaz redudancy is my only big concern, just because after years divinf max 55m I now think of sligthky deeper dives...

also I can see that most of my friends (that have been officialy certified) don't have this concern and only reply of their budy insp 3 littr dil tank to give them a safe route from the bottom to their Nx40 MOD

So in fact bottom bail out gas planning is something I don't know mutch about...

regards
jean mi

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

If you are taking a trimix CCR course, you would be doing such an exercise (minus the actual flooding of the unit).

However, depending on the instructor and agency, you would also have (some / most of) the following safety factors:

additional safety divers (instructors / divemasters) to assist
additional safety gas other than those carry by the divers
in a more controlled dive location (for visual reference, for example)
simulate deco for a longer BT than actual
etc...

I don't recommend actually flood your unit since it could have residual affect on your electronic even after cleaning - as well as adding additional risk.

At the end of the day, just remember that it is an exercise in controlled environment with the objective for the divers to learn certain skillset - not to see if you could actually survive it.

Once you have done one, you could always push for more task loading on the following one to improve on your skillset. No need to go for the whole she-bang on the first run.

Plan well, have fun and dive safe!

Mark Chase · 30th July 2007, 22:45

I wish i had more dive time to practice rescue and self rescue. Like most divers, my balance between work, family and diving is a precarious one, so dive time has to be quality dive time.

As a result I keep my emergancy procedures simple. If in doubt bail out and carry enough gas for this to work. Then to make it even more simple i got a BOV plumbed into a big off board tank.

I am told by many in "black suits" that this is covering up for a lack of skill. Which is spot on but why make a hard situation even harder??

My attitude is have a plan and stick to the plan. Make the plan as simple as possable so it stands a chance of working even on a reely bad day.

I am sure if i could get in a couple of days diving every week I could be a dive god, but seeing as I cant Ill have to aspire to being a pleb who makes do.
I hope and pray that what I lack in skill i make up for in self beleif and a strong servival instinct.

As far as the rest of the dive goes (ie non CCR specific failures) then a lot can be done during deco to ensure equipmnet placement & accessabuility is adiquat and that mucle memory is up to speed. valve on valv off touch the reg, get SMB out, put it back, unclip, re clip stage etc. all the usual stuff and it helps to pass the time.

I also run bailout deco plans in my head (using ratio deco)and compaire them with the Shearwater on 10/95 to build a knowladge base for X dive to Y depth and I visulise specific failures and plan a responce in my head.

Another favorite deco pass time is "analise your buddys rig" where has he clipped stuff, how is his on board off board gas rigged, where are his dump valves etc etc. What would you go for if he sinks? What would you go for if he goes up? That sort of thing.

All good fun and as I say it passes the time.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mixaddict · 31st July 2007, 06:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I wish i had more dive time to practice rescue and self rescue. Like most divers, my balance between work, family and diving is a precarious one, so dive time has to be quality dive time.

As a result I keep my emergancy procedures simple. If in doubt bail out and carry enough gas for this to work. Then to make it even more simple i got a BOV plumbed into a big off board tank.

I am told by many in "black suits" that this is covering up for a lack of skill. Which is spot on but why make a hard situation even harder??

My attitude is have a plan and stick to the plan. Make the plan as simple as possable so it stands a chance of working even on a reely bad day.

I am sure if i could get in a couple of days diving every week I could be a dive god, but seeing as I cant Ill have to aspire to being a pleb who makes do.
I hope and pray that what I lack in skill i make up for in self beleif and a strong servival instinct.

As far as the rest of the dive goes (ie non CCR specific failures) then a lot can be done during deco to ensure equipmnet placement & accessabuility is adiquat and that mucle memory is up to speed. valve on valv off touch the reg, get SMB out, put it back, unclip, re clip stage etc. all the usual stuff and it helps to pass the time.

I also run bailout deco plans in my head (using ratio deco)and compaire them with the Shearwater on 10/95 to build a knowladge base for X dive to Y depth and I visulise specific failures and plan a responce in my head.

Another favorite deco pass time is "analise your buddys rig" where has he clipped stuff, how is his on board off board gas rigged, where are his dump valves etc etc. What would you go for if he sinks? What would you go for if he goes up? That sort of thing.

All good fun and as I say it passes the time.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mark,

Great ideas for passing deco. You gotta do something right? I am going to use a few of your ideas on my next deco!

Regards,
Randy

30th July 2007, 15:37	#1 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 919	How often do you practise emergency procedures ? Hi all, A couple of days ago I proposed some friends to get down to 50m, to drown our circuit (our sensors are 12 months and we are about to change them), to switch to OC and to test a complete OC ascent procedure deploying the marker boy, swithching the computer to oc mode, switchin oc gases in the way up etc... I was replied ho , no use less, dangerous etc etc... Is it stupid to practise emergency procedures in nearly real conditions ? Is it more dangerous then usefull ? is it better to practise in shallow zone ?? regards jean mi __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
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30th July 2007, 16:17	#2 (permalink)
steveharriss Bubble free by choice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Yorkshire Posts: 174	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? If I read you correctly you intend to fully flood your loop at 50m as a practice? I haven't much experience but it sounds extremely dodgy to me. I have practiced dealing with a loop flood...but that is under controlled conditions at a depth that if all went pear shaped I could still get myself to the surface without too much drama, and didn't involve actually filling the unit to the brim and making myself extremely negatively buoyant!. My understanding was that the practice was to build muscle memory and motor skills rather than placing yourself in potential danger. I'm sure an instructor will be along to put me right shortly though Apart from that it all sounded fine...
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30th July 2007, 16:43	#3 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? If you are taking a trimix CCR course, you would be doing such an exercise (minus the actual flooding of the unit). However, depending on the instructor and agency, you would also have (some / most of) the following safety factors: additional safety divers (instructors / divemasters) to assist additional safety gas other than those carry by the divers in a more controlled dive location (for visual reference, for example) simulate deco for a longer BT than actual etc... I don't recommend actually flood your unit since it could have residual affect on your electronic even after cleaning - as well as adding additional risk. At the end of the day, just remember that it is an exercise in controlled environment with the objective for the divers to learn certain skillset - not to see if you could actually survive it. Once you have done one, you could always push for more task loading on the following one to improve on your skillset. No need to go for the whole she-bang on the first run. Plan well, have fun and dive safe! __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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30th July 2007, 17:29	#4 (permalink)
Paul Evans Freedom is the Key. Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: London Posts: 162	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) I don't recommend actually flood your unit since it could have residual affect on your electronic even after cleaning - as well as adding additional risk. At the end of the day, just remember that it is an exercise in controlled environment with the objective for the divers to learn certain skillset - not to see if you could actually survive it. Once you have done one, you could always push for more task loading on the following one to improve on your skillset. No need to go for the whole she-bang on the first run. Sounds spot on to me. Don't do it all at once, add drills together over a series of dives building up to the faluire you want to simulate. Personnaly I would,nt flood the loop like that. __________________ "To many lies, far to much BS" Anon!.......... will do........ "Any time anyone says, 'there is only one right way to do this' your bullshit meter should be pegged. Its a presumptive statement, made by a person who fears being proved wrong." Bill Gavin.
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30th July 2007, 21:20	#5 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,774	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? Why not (in shallow, controlled, double-buddied enviroment) have a buddy hand you 8lbs'ish of lead (to simulate flood) and shut your loop off... you have to do everything after that? Actually flooding the loop sounds too realistic to me. __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
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30th July 2007, 21:58	#6 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 919	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? Hi, hem...well as you know I will never undertake any CCR course, if one day you learn my death on this forum you will be able to say "this guy never met any ccr instructor if he had been reasonnable he would still be here to discuss with us". I hope you will never be able to say that (((-: You know the first thing I did after my firsts ccr dives was to test safety procedures (diluant rebreathing, oc swicth from 40m etc) So far I am still there but ok I should have been trained, every body should of course well apart from that it is interresting to wonder if we testing our skills in reall condition is resonnable or if it is better to test in easy conditions. the idea of doing this with an assistant is wise, of couse I wanted to simulate the a "long" deco and not an obligatory one. I am gonna think of it. regards jean mi Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) If you are taking a trimix CCR course, you would be doing such an exercise (minus the actual flooding of the unit). However, depending on the instructor and agency, you would also have (some / most of) the following safety factors: additional safety divers (instructors / divemasters) to assist additional safety gas other than those carry by the divers in a more controlled dive location (for visual reference, for example) simulate deco for a longer BT than actual etc... I don't recommend actually flood your unit since it could have residual affect on your electronic even after cleaning - as well as adding additional risk. At the end of the day, just remember that it is an exercise in controlled environment with the objective for the divers to learn certain skillset - not to see if you could actually survive it. Once you have done one, you could always push for more task loading on the following one to improve on your skillset. No need to go for the whole she-bang on the first run. Plan well, have fun and dive safe! __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

30th July 2007, 22:02	#7 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 919	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? Quote: (Originally Posted by steveharriss) If I read you correctly you intend to fully flood your loop at 50m as a practice? I haven't much experience but it sounds extremely dodgy to me. I have practiced dealing with a loop flood...but that is under controlled conditions at a depth that if all went pear shaped I could still get myself to the surface without too much drama, and didn't involve actually filling the unit to the brim and making myself extremely negatively buoyant!. My understanding was that the practice was to build muscle memory and motor skills rather than placing yourself in potential danger. I'm sure an instructor will be along to put me right shortly though Apart from that it all sounded fine... Well so it seems that it is not a good idea...on the ther hand if I don't try I will never know.... __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

30th July 2007, 22:20	#8 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 919	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? Phi, just an other bit of advice please, i fact what I really wonder is : will I have enough bottom gas to ascent from the bottom to my travel mix depth ? I know my RMV, I can take safety margins but will It be enough the D day under sress and with a floaded loop. My bottom gaz redudancy is my only big concern, just because after years divinf max 55m I now think of sligthky deeper dives... also I can see that most of my friends (that have been officialy certified) don't have this concern and only reply of their budy insp 3 littr dil tank to give them a safe route from the bottom to their Nx40 MOD So in fact bottom bail out gas planning is something I don't know mutch about... regards jean mi Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) If you are taking a trimix CCR course, you would be doing such an exercise (minus the actual flooding of the unit). However, depending on the instructor and agency, you would also have (some / most of) the following safety factors: additional safety divers (instructors / divemasters) to assist additional safety gas other than those carry by the divers in a more controlled dive location (for visual reference, for example) simulate deco for a longer BT than actual etc... I don't recommend actually flood your unit since it could have residual affect on your electronic even after cleaning - as well as adding additional risk. At the end of the day, just remember that it is an exercise in controlled environment with the objective for the divers to learn certain skillset - not to see if you could actually survive it. Once you have done one, you could always push for more task loading on the following one to improve on your skillset. No need to go for the whole she-bang on the first run. Plan well, have fun and dive safe! __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

30th July 2007, 22:45	#9 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,856	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? I wish i had more dive time to practice rescue and self rescue. Like most divers, my balance between work, family and diving is a precarious one, so dive time has to be quality dive time. As a result I keep my emergancy procedures simple. If in doubt bail out and carry enough gas for this to work. Then to make it even more simple i got a BOV plumbed into a big off board tank. I am told by many in "black suits" that this is covering up for a lack of skill. Which is spot on but why make a hard situation even harder?? My attitude is have a plan and stick to the plan. Make the plan as simple as possable so it stands a chance of working even on a reely bad day. I am sure if i could get in a couple of days diving every week I could be a dive god, but seeing as I cant Ill have to aspire to being a pleb who makes do. I hope and pray that what I lack in skill i make up for in self beleif and a strong servival instinct. As far as the rest of the dive goes (ie non CCR specific failures) then a lot can be done during deco to ensure equipmnet placement & accessabuility is adiquat and that mucle memory is up to speed. valve on valv off touch the reg, get SMB out, put it back, unclip, re clip stage etc. all the usual stuff and it helps to pass the time. I also run bailout deco plans in my head (using ratio deco)and compaire them with the Shearwater on 10/95 to build a knowladge base for X dive to Y depth and I visulise specific failures and plan a responce in my head. Another favorite deco pass time is "analise your buddys rig" where has he clipped stuff, how is his on board off board gas rigged, where are his dump valves etc etc. What would you go for if he sinks? What would you go for if he goes up? That sort of thing. All good fun and as I say it passes the time. ATB Mark Chase __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
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31st July 2007, 06:24	#10 (permalink)
Mixaddict RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Draper, Utah USA Posts: 520	Re: How ofent do you practise emergency procedures ? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I wish i had more dive time to practice rescue and self rescue. Like most divers, my balance between work, family and diving is a precarious one, so dive time has to be quality dive time. As a result I keep my emergancy procedures simple. If in doubt bail out and carry enough gas for this to work. Then to make it even more simple i got a BOV plumbed into a big off board tank. I am told by many in "black suits" that this is covering up for a lack of skill. Which is spot on but why make a hard situation even harder?? My attitude is have a plan and stick to the plan. Make the plan as simple as possable so it stands a chance of working even on a reely bad day. I am sure if i could get in a couple of days diving every week I could be a dive god, but seeing as I cant Ill have to aspire to being a pleb who makes do. I hope and pray that what I lack in skill i make up for in self beleif and a strong servival instinct. As far as the rest of the dive goes (ie non CCR specific failures) then a lot can be done during deco to ensure equipmnet placement & accessabuility is adiquat and that mucle memory is up to speed. valve on valv off touch the reg, get SMB out, put it back, unclip, re clip stage etc. all the usual stuff and it helps to pass the time. I also run bailout deco plans in my head (using ratio deco)and compaire them with the Shearwater on 10/95 to build a knowladge base for X dive to Y depth and I visulise specific failures and plan a responce in my head. Another favorite deco pass time is "analise your buddys rig" where has he clipped stuff, how is his on board off board gas rigged, where are his dump valves etc etc. What would you go for if he sinks? What would you go for if he goes up? That sort of thing. All good fun and as I say it passes the time. ATB Mark Chase Mark, Great ideas for passing deco. You gotta do something right? I am going to use a few of your ideas on my next deco! Regards, Randy __________________ Randy Thornton (MixAddict) Inspiration, Evolution, Hammerhead & Sentinel CCR Instructor
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