Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged.

PoseidonSv · 25th July 2007, 16:00

When I start my own agency for diving training, is there any law or other things other then to have all legal things covered that is needed?

How did some of the newer agencies start out when there was just one member?

Which agencies exsist and which ones might not be accepted by the bigger ones and why?

How can a boat ir divestore know about all existing agencies and such?

In my country there is no law about how diving education should be done or who has the right to say which ones are valid or not.

Im very curious about this issue!

**wedivebc** · 25th July 2007, 18:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by PoseidonSv)

When I start my own agency for diving training, is there any law or other things other then to have all legal things covered that is needed?

How did some of the newer agencies start out when there was just one member?

Which agencies exsist and which ones might not be accepted by the bigger ones and why?

How can a boat ir divestore know about all existing agencies and such?

In my country there is no law about how diving education should be done or who has the right to say which ones are valid or not.

Im very curious about this issue!

Just need to sell your program to your insurance carrier and you can be an agency. Might be harder than you think though.

Eoin · 26th July 2007, 10:26

I heard recently that there's over 50 diver training agencies in the world at the moment. Thats a lot. Some are big (PADI, TDI...) and some are national and small enough. Getting the programs together and getting them approved by the HSE would be tough though!

**nigelh** · 26th July 2007, 10:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Eoin)

...and getting them approved by the HSE would be tough though!

??? The HSE approves recreational training?

I suspect not... They might take a view on whether the course is safe for both instructors and students but not it's contents.

Paul Evans · 26th July 2007, 10:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by nigelh)

??? The HSE approves recreational training?

I suspect not... They might take a view on whether the course is safe for both instructors and students but not it's contents.

All Agencies have to produce a Risk Assesment to teach in the UK, The HSE have a ACOP they have to follow, they would be wide open to being sued and I doubt any insurer would touch them otherwise.

The agencies create their own ACOP based on the risk assesments, eg TDI Max 75m Teaching limit, PSAI 80m Teaching limit in the UK. This is not a HSE restriction.....Its based on a Agency risk assesment. These are then passed to the HSE to be checked for complinance. Without doing this they would not get insurence..........

So Yes the HSE does "Approve" all the agencies. There is no legal reason, its just to get insurence and and protect the CEO from ending up on a manslaughter charge

PeteS · 26th July 2007, 22:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Paul Evans)

All Agencies have to produce a Risk Assesment to teach in the UK, The HSE have a ACOP they have to follow, they would be wide open to being sued and I doubt any insurer would touch them otherwise.

The agencies create their own ACOP based on the risk assesments, eg TDI Max 75m Teaching limit, PSAI 80m Teaching limit in the UK. This is not a HSE restriction.....Its based on a Agency risk assesment. These are then passed to the HSE to be checked for complinance. Without doing this they would not get insurence..........

So Yes the HSE does "Approve" all the agencies. There is no legal reason, its just to get insurence and and protect the CEO from ending up on a manslaughter charge

So, if it's just for insurance, and you've already taught yourself all you know, and issued yourself a card and you don't teach anyone else, and as you are satisfied you meet all the training criterea you laid out, you don't need the insurance, because you could only sue yourself, so all you need to do is issue yourself with one of your own cards and go and dive. And why should that card be any more or less valid than any other card issued by any other training organisation?

I have a printer and a laminator and could produce cards just like IANTD in the UK used to...........

Paul Evans · 26th July 2007, 22:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS)

So, if it's just for insurance, and you've already taught yourself all you know, and issued yourself a card and you don't teach anyone else, and as you are satisfied you meet all the training criterea you laid out, you don't need the insurance, because you could only sue yourself, so all you need to do is issue yourself with one of your own cards and go and dive. And why should that card be any more or less valid than any other card issued by any other training organisation?

I have a printer and a laminator and could produce cards just like IANTD in the UK used to...........

There is NO LAW in the UK that says you can't do what you said

There is also NO LAW that says you can't buy or build a Rebreather

There are no laws govening this at all.......................................

The question is.........Would you teach yourself

Philippe GERIN · 27th July 2007, 01:13

You're sure about that? Sweden is EU, right? And there's no laws made up by these blody technocrates about agencies, yet? I'm surprised.
Nevertheless, there are CE scuba diving education standards. They just have been approved by ISO as well. ANSI also participated to the evaluation and accredited thoses same standards too, and in return ANSI standards have also been accredited by iso.
So these 6 levels of certification along with the teaching method and material have been evaluated and accredited worlwide now. So I guess, you'll have to go through the screening and get accredited too in order to get insurance easily.
A little off topic but it can be a lead for you to follow up: I just read in the French diving magazine "Plongee" that TDI made a deal with an insurance company called Willis Insurance to be able to teach and certify divers on rebreathers made in small numbers from very small companies. A TDI instructor could surely help you there. Maybe you could make a deal with the same insurance company?
Best
Philippe

PeteS · 27th July 2007, 07:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

.......So these 6 levels of certification along with the teaching method and material have been evaluated and accredited worlwide now. So I guess, you'll have to go through the screening and get accredited too in order to get insurance easily.......

Well, IMHO, if anyone can issue a certification card, and it would be possible to do that without any actual diving taking place, for example by reading a book, or learning all you can from the internet

, what happens when you roll up on a dive trip with "the cert card" that your training organisation issued? Is someone going to refuse it just because they never heard of it?

As to diving without training? That's another matter altogether, but if you you can divorce that from the validity of the card issuer.........

I think I'll make myself PSCCRTI Trimix CCR Course Director. I'll put on the photo ID card that I can do any gas mix, to any depth, solo, in a cave.........

Seems to cover most things.......

**PhilSiswick** · 27th July 2007, 07:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by Paul Evans)

There is NO LAW in the UK that says you can't do what you said

There is also NO LAW that says you can't buy or build a Rebreather

There are no laws govening this at all.......................................

The question is.........Would you teach yourself

It's one of those interesting areas that is governed by insurance and not the law. We can't buy units without certification, because of the manufacturer's liability insurance cover and we can't set up our own agencies because we couldn't get liability insurance (and I assume most our life insurance would be invalidated too).

However much we curse at governments and the EU, I suspect more of our lives are run by insurers than we'd care to admit....

And as to whether I would teach myself - hell no! I'm far too aware of my own failings even to seriously contemplate diving solo ;-)

Cheers,

25th July 2007, 16:00	#1 (permalink)
PoseidonSv New Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sweden Posts: 57	Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. When I start my own agency for diving training, is there any law or other things other then to have all legal things covered that is needed? How did some of the newer agencies start out when there was just one member? Which agencies exsist and which ones might not be accepted by the bigger ones and why? How can a boat ir divestore know about all existing agencies and such? In my country there is no law about how diving education should be done or who has the right to say which ones are valid or not. Im very curious about this issue!
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25th July 2007, 18:38	#2 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,508	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. Quote: (Originally Posted by PoseidonSv) When I start my own agency for diving training, is there any law or other things other then to have all legal things covered that is needed? How did some of the newer agencies start out when there was just one member? Which agencies exsist and which ones might not be accepted by the bigger ones and why? How can a boat ir divestore know about all existing agencies and such? In my country there is no law about how diving education should be done or who has the right to say which ones are valid or not. Im very curious about this issue! Just need to sell your program to your insurance carrier and you can be an agency. Might be harder than you think though. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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26th July 2007, 10:26	#3 (permalink)
Eoin New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 57	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. I heard recently that there's over 50 diver training agencies in the world at the moment. Thats a lot. Some are big (PADI, TDI...) and some are national and small enough. Getting the programs together and getting them approved by the HSE would be tough though! __________________ Ta, Eoin ~~~~~~~~~ www.scuba.ie www.technicaldiving.ie
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26th July 2007, 10:35	#4 (permalink)
nigelh New member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 883	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. Quote: (Originally Posted by Eoin) ...and getting them approved by the HSE would be tough though! ??? The HSE approves recreational training? I suspect not... They might take a view on whether the course is safe for both instructors and students but not it's contents. __________________ nigelh
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26th July 2007, 10:44	#5 (permalink)
Paul Evans Freedom is the Key. Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: London Posts: 162	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. Quote: (Originally Posted by nigelh) ??? The HSE approves recreational training? I suspect not... They might take a view on whether the course is safe for both instructors and students but not it's contents. All Agencies have to produce a Risk Assesment to teach in the UK, The HSE have a ACOP they have to follow, they would be wide open to being sued and I doubt any insurer would touch them otherwise. The agencies create their own ACOP based on the risk assesments, eg TDI Max 75m Teaching limit, PSAI 80m Teaching limit in the UK. This is not a HSE restriction.....Its based on a Agency risk assesment. These are then passed to the HSE to be checked for complinance. Without doing this they would not get insurence.......... So Yes the HSE does "Approve" all the agencies. There is no legal reason, its just to get insurence and and protect the CEO from ending up on a manslaughter charge __________________ "To many lies, far to much BS" Anon!.......... will do........ "Any time anyone says, 'there is only one right way to do this' your bullshit meter should be pegged. Its a presumptive statement, made by a person who fears being proved wrong." Bill Gavin.
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26th July 2007, 22:08	#6 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 543	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. Quote: (Originally Posted by Paul Evans) All Agencies have to produce a Risk Assesment to teach in the UK, The HSE have a ACOP they have to follow, they would be wide open to being sued and I doubt any insurer would touch them otherwise. The agencies create their own ACOP based on the risk assesments, eg TDI Max 75m Teaching limit, PSAI 80m Teaching limit in the UK. This is not a HSE restriction.....Its based on a Agency risk assesment. These are then passed to the HSE to be checked for complinance. Without doing this they would not get insurence.......... So Yes the HSE does "Approve" all the agencies. There is no legal reason, its just to get insurence and and protect the CEO from ending up on a manslaughter charge So, if it's just for insurance, and you've already taught yourself all you know, and issued yourself a card and you don't teach anyone else, and as you are satisfied you meet all the training criterea you laid out, you don't need the insurance, because you could only sue yourself, so all you need to do is issue yourself with one of your own cards and go and dive. And why should that card be any more or less valid than any other card issued by any other training organisation? I have a printer and a laminator and could produce cards just like IANTD in the UK used to........... __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
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26th July 2007, 22:15	#7 (permalink)
Paul Evans Freedom is the Key. Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: London Posts: 162	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS) So, if it's just for insurance, and you've already taught yourself all you know, and issued yourself a card and you don't teach anyone else, and as you are satisfied you meet all the training criterea you laid out, you don't need the insurance, because you could only sue yourself, so all you need to do is issue yourself with one of your own cards and go and dive. And why should that card be any more or less valid than any other card issued by any other training organisation? I have a printer and a laminator and could produce cards just like IANTD in the UK used to........... There is NO LAW in the UK that says you can't do what you said There is also NO LAW that says you can't buy or build a Rebreather There are no laws govening this at all....................................... The question is.........Would you teach yourself __________________ "To many lies, far to much BS" Anon!.......... will do........ "Any time anyone says, 'there is only one right way to do this' your bullshit meter should be pegged. Its a presumptive statement, made by a person who fears being proved wrong." Bill Gavin.
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27th July 2007, 01:13	#8 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 647	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. You're sure about that? Sweden is EU, right? And there's no laws made up by these blody technocrates about agencies, yet? I'm surprised. Nevertheless, there are CE scuba diving education standards. They just have been approved by ISO as well. ANSI also participated to the evaluation and accredited thoses same standards too, and in return ANSI standards have also been accredited by iso. So these 6 levels of certification along with the teaching method and material have been evaluated and accredited worlwide now. So I guess, you'll have to go through the screening and get accredited too in order to get insurance easily. A little off topic but it can be a lead for you to follow up: I just read in the French diving magazine "Plongee" that TDI made a deal with an insurance company called Willis Insurance to be able to teach and certify divers on rebreathers made in small numbers from very small companies. A TDI instructor could surely help you there. Maybe you could make a deal with the same insurance company? Best Philippe Last edited by Philippe GERIN : 27th July 2007 at 01:19.
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27th July 2007, 07:16	#9 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 543	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) .......So these 6 levels of certification along with the teaching method and material have been evaluated and accredited worlwide now. So I guess, you'll have to go through the screening and get accredited too in order to get insurance easily....... Well, IMHO, if anyone can issue a certification card, and it would be possible to do that without any actual diving taking place, for example by reading a book, or learning all you can from the internet , what happens when you roll up on a dive trip with "the cert card" that your training organisation issued? Is someone going to refuse it just because they never heard of it? As to diving without training? That's another matter altogether, but if you you can divorce that from the validity of the card issuer......... I think I'll make myself PSCCRTI Trimix CCR Course Director. I'll put on the photo ID card that I can do any gas mix, to any depth, solo, in a cave......... Seems to cover most things....... __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
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27th July 2007, 07:43	#10 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,092	Re: Diving Agencies and how they are accepted or aknowledged. Quote: (Originally Posted by Paul Evans) There is NO LAW in the UK that says you can't do what you said There is also NO LAW that says you can't buy or build a Rebreather There are no laws govening this at all....................................... The question is.........Would you teach yourself It's one of those interesting areas that is governed by insurance and not the law. We can't buy units without certification, because of the manufacturer's liability insurance cover and we can't set up our own agencies because we couldn't get liability insurance (and I assume most our life insurance would be invalidated too). However much we curse at governments and the EU, I suspect more of our lives are run by insurers than we'd care to admit.... And as to whether I would teach myself - hell no! I'm far too aware of my own failings even to seriously contemplate diving solo ;-) Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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