Why Have MCCR Training?

ChickenDiver

Before you read this post please understand that I am bringing this issue up as a point of discussion. I am not advocating “self-training” or suggesting that proper training on rebreathers or any other dive gear is not valuable. As a dive professional I firmly believe that training is the backbone of the dive industry. With that said, I want to outline my situation and some thoughts that I have had.

A month ago I bought a KISS, I selected the unit because the simplicity, quality and reliability all appealed to me. Like all KISS purchaser I was asked to sign a waiver promising to get training on the unit before diving it. After sending payment I immediately contacted a well known instructor in Florida and arranged for training on the unit. A week or so later my new KISS arrived in the mail, I opened the box, watched the video, read the manual and filled my O2 and dil cylinders. I practiced assembling and disassembling the unit a few times, tested the various valves, did a positive and negative pressure check and as I was sitting there in my den looking at the unit it occurred to me that there really wasn’t anything preventing me from taking the unit diving. I have spent some time on SCRs and have a good grip on the principals at play in CCR diving, I was reasonably confident that I could safely dive with the unit. Still, because I had signed the waiver and thus was morally bound, I left it in my den until training began.
The first day of training covered principals and skills with which I was already familiar, in fact, at a couple of points during the lecture I noticed areas where the instructor’s explanation differed from the facts (unit design, flow rates, scrubber size, etc). I left class that night convincing myself that I would gain valuable experience in the water. Day two was much the same, the unit did nothing I did not expect it to do, the bailout and flush drills were skills I was already familiar with and presented no issues. Day three saw the first deep(ish) dive, again, nothing special, nothing I didn’t already know. Day four covered other CCRs on the market, primarily eCCRs, again, nothing I couldn’t have learnt easily from the various manufacturers. The dives on day four were no different from those of day three. Day five was the deepest dive, the entire purpose was to see how the unit acted under increased pressure, it seemed that there wasn’t anything about this dive that I could not have experienced on my own.

So, here is the question, which I am sure has become obvious at this point, why would someone who is comfortable with the moderate increase in the risk of personal injury and has reasonable skills in the water pay $1000-1400 to learn to fly an MCCR? My question does not apply to eCCR systems; I have spent time around eCCRs and do not believe that they can be learnt easily without training. The added complexity of eCCR systems suggests to me that additional skills beyond diluant/O2 addition, bailout and set-point maintenance are necessary to fly them safely. During my class the instructor flew an eCCR which reinforced this belief.

I asked my instructor a couple of times why there was a class for MCCR and why it was unit specific, his answer was a consistent “because if you don’t learn to dive these things you will die” To me this answer seems to quash any further discussion of the topic, which is why I bring it up on this forum. I have watched people jump on other divers who enter the world of CCR diving without training and, until last week, I though there was good reason to require training, but I am not as convinced of that now. Anyone care to tell me what I am missing?

NOTE: because of the apparent stigma associated with these kinds of questions I am posting under a different username than I usually use.

Dave Sutton

Nice post.

From a manufacturers standpoint, it's because "A person is smart, people are stupid"....

(sorry, I forgot who has that as his sigfile, no intent to plagerize. It's too true).


What the instructor really meant to say was that "YOU might not die without this training, but SOMEONE will, so we're gonna train ALL of yas so as to make sure...."


Training at the industry level is done to the lowest common denominator. That's the bottom line.

I'm all in favor of core-curriculum training with unit specific modules. Core Curriculum = 'eCCR' or 'mCCR' theory and practice (non unit specific) with additional unit specific modules added for each unit. To cross over from a KISS to a Sport Kiss? A half a day would do..... From an Inspiration to a 'Boris? Longer. Until the industry goes this route fully, previously trained divers are going to suffer threatened death by boredom while doing new units. It's a paradigm shift that we're asking for.


And no need to change your posting account, this is a valid question that the agencies/manufacturers ought to be interested in addressing. Meaningful training is one thing. Artificial barriers to divers wishing to dive on different units benefits nobody.



Dave

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CCR-Wrecker

Chicken,
I feel your pain!
I have been staring @ my KISS for some time now. Personal commitments and a busy training schedule have conspired to keep me from getting my training done. I am a YBOD diver since '02, but I still need to be instructed on the KISS. Soon I hope.

Regards,
Andy

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decoweenie

"Chicken Diver",

Good question!

From the personal experience of a Rebreather instructor, I see a wide range of ability / understanding / skill / motivation to learn from the people who dive them.

The difficulty (as Dave had pointed out) is how do we judge who does and does NOT need the training ?

Take driving, for example... Some people will be able to drive very quickly without much fuss. Most will be good drivers after training and practice. And some will never drive safely on a busy environment.

Some of my mCCR students are like fish to water on their first 1-2 dives, some took a little while longer and some took even longer to bring their skill level up.

Now imagine the last group of drivers / Rebreather divers without training!

Just because you could gain proficiency quickly, and willing to devote the time / energy to research and prepare yourself, not everyone will be the same.

I hope my opinion doesn't strike you the same way as your instructor did, but it is what I have seen from instructing people in a variable of sport training activities that could result in death if making mistakes.


PS: If Jetsam did ship your unit to you complete that you could have dived it without training, then it must have been a different protocol than the past when the KISS valve was shipped to your instructor directly - who then will give to you in person during training.

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Johnny Christensen

Well... guess that's the dilemma that always facing that kind of situation. Some people who pocess the right background can safely learn to dive a rebreather themselves, be it a SCR, mCCR or eCCR.
The problem is just that a lot of people have a unrealistic view of their own skills level. That leads to a higher probability of user induced problems. So in order to cover everybodys butt, authorised training is required.
It's not that a rebreather is particular difficoult to figure out, but it's more to do with that you have to be able to get a grip of your ego and tell yourself that most of your open circuit experience is worth nothing.

Some people do just fine, others fail in a potentially fatal manner. Depends on your attitude, how smart you are.

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Tom Mount

But you are already a cCr diver so the crossover will be short and provided your emergency skills which are the same ECCR or MCCr should be complete in a confined water session - and a couple of dives as well as go through operational aspects lecture wise

In Chikens case he was going from SCR which is not even close to the same emergency skils so would requie a complete training program

Ben Field

HI Chicken,

I wasn't sure what I was going to learn on my MCCR training, its seemed pretty self explanatory as you've realised.

On the other hand- no one in my club dived CCR so not only would I be winging it but even if I didn't have a problem who would know if I was doing it right right!!!

My view here is similar to going from Adv to Tech Nitrox, Rec to Tec Trimix or even Rebreather Mod1 to 3... each time you know whats coming but you're paying to have your ar*e covered by someone who's supposed to know what they are doing and be capable of hauling your butt to the surface should you screw up doing it for the first time.

IMVHO of course.

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Dutchy

I'm wondering ou loud here....How many self-taught divers kill themselves on the first 50 dives?

With mCCR still being a toy for (mostly) engineers technicians with a surplus of cash and spare time I haven't met people that didn't know up front the details on their mCCR and how to use it.

I realize that may change when mCCR becomes a product for the masses like SCUBA equipment but for now it seems odd.

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Buccaneer

Having just completed training on the Meg COPIS, I think I can add one or two things here.

While the theory and implementation of an MCCR is relatively straightforward, I think that there are still a couple of things that might bite someone in the derrier if they weren't careful.

I felt that my instruction was very, very good. And that in addition into learning effective techniques for both managing the unit and what to do if something went wrong, that I also picked up insights from the instructor that I might not have if I had done it alone.

Also, during our dives, there was a knowledgeable and capable person there to assist me if things got out of hand.

In general, given the complexity of the technical/environmental interaction presented by using these machines, I think knowing how to fly manually (MCCR) before going to ECCR is a really good idea. So I guess I do take issue with a previous post indicating that these tools are toys - they are anything but.

So to summarize my generalized ramblings - I think that training should be a requirement. Anyone ever been asked for their card when buying 'sorb?

nigelh

This is an interesting question:

Probably some of the most careful dives I ever do are the IDA64.
I have had every part of it apart on the bench and I have treated it with love and devotion and yet I act as if I expect it to explode and take out half of Sussex.

Is this because I have no formal training on the thing and I subconciously assume that training is the norm? I'm not sure myself. It's a lovely thing to dive but it's the only time I use velco dumpable weight and until recently I carried a bailout tank that weighed more than the whole rebreather.

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