Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth

Drmike · 11th May 2007, 05:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr)

Mike
i supported you on the meg question, but where did this anger come from for this post.

what anger? a rant sure - but angry - no

To repeat my only point is:

Quote:

Bitter experience has taught me people never get the point so Ill spell out my point clearly so there's no confusion:

-I am not saying discussions are not useful.

-What I am saying is in the interest of the very safety we are trying to promote we should at all times when having such discussions clearly differentiate between educated opinion and uneducated opinion

simply put - everything should be stated as opinion only and weighted based on the proposers knowldedge/experiece in the subject at hand.

You kinda proved that point in your post above. You gave your opinon and refereneced it to your experiences. Perfect - your knowledge experience adds weight to your opinions.

On another forum there was a guy who I knew had only been diving a few months 'advising' strongly confidentaly and assuredly about a safety issue he knew absolutely nothing about. People were listening to him - someone could die. Thats the inherant danger in non peer reviewed publications (which is what internet posts are (unless challenged)

**Gill Envy** · 11th May 2007, 06:15

Is there ever a time when one might choose to do a flush on of an unconscious divers loop and then take them deeper? I can't help but thing that unless you are in shallow water that sending someone to the surface is pretty much certain death for them, that once unconscious that they are most likely going to die. Is getting to the surface the first order of business? If the person is not breathing they are only exhaling gas as they ascend, unable to utilize a fresh loop of flushed gas. By Flushing the loop and then descending some, the blood po2 would raise and at the same time the flushed gas would enter the lungs as the pressure compresses the gas, creating some increased chance that the diver would come to... "I think", no i'm not even that sure, that's why i'm posing it as a question.

While this probably would only apply to hypoxia with complete unconsciousness, i'm curious to hear if anyone thinks it might ever be a plausible course of action, and under what circumstances.

diveladydive · 11th May 2007, 06:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

simply put - everything should be stated as opinion only and weighted based on the proposers knowldedge/experiece in the subject at hand.

Quite true. We are lucky to have the experience, and the knowledge, of one of the world's foremost divers, not to mention rebreather divers, on this forum; Dr. Tom Mount. I have no wish to reinvent the wheel, & won't mess with it unless I can improve it. I cannot improve on Tom's post.

With luck, most of us will never have to face an unconcious yet alive diver in an Rebreather, or an unconcious OC diver for that matter, at depth and with either one of us having a deco obligation. However, should that occur, we must figure out, as Tom might say, a survival-oriented response that fits the situation.

rdmmdr · 11th May 2007, 07:16

mike

The peer review is offensive, because who decides who is a peer. I value the input from the newer divers. it helps me understand their comfort level and helps me understand the current training levels that have produced them. Two months ago i was diving oc due to a reg problem. a instructor on the boat told me i would kill myself. i had pulled the plate and wing off my unit and put on my bail out reg on a rental 80. no depth gage no computer i did have a spg, no octo. no inflater hose.

he demanded how i was going to figure out my deco,. i told him that as long as i had 750 pounds at thirty ft and surfaced with 250 left i would be fine. it has worked for thirty years i not see a reason to question it now.then he complained about not having an inflater hose. i told him that if you can not take a reg out of your mouth underwater an inflate your vest you should not be there. this is the kind of bs dir instructors we are teaching now.

is diving safer now maybe, are our divers dumber now yes. the skill set required to dive a steel 72 without a spg and a bc, is ten times higher the the skill set required to dive trimix today. i can not remember the last time i saw an oc diver do a manual inflate, that was younger then forty years old.

that said, my peers are everyone that gets wet. and if i am going to establish procedures for them i need to understand thier limitations and abilities. The thing that has pissed off my peers is your peers telling us how we should dive in order to support some of your colleagues. transistion courses, and multiple specialty required courses. And you did it without our input. everyone on this board is my peer and i will accept this to be a peer review.
rick

Drmike · 11th May 2007, 07:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr)

mike

The peer review is offensive, because who decides who is a peer.

clearly you have never carried out any research worked in a university or been involved with any kind of academic studies involving research so ill explain.

Peer review is the term universally accepted throughout every university and center of research/learning worldwide. It means if you are going to say publish article/paper/journal/book on a subject such publications are reviewed by people who are accepted experts (or as near as can be found) to the subject matter.

Theres nothing offensive about that. Its the way its done. Its one way to add weight to whats being said and to weed out the BS.

I have no idea what your talking about me and agencies for - I dont belong to any and its got nothing to do with this discussion you have your wires crossed. Im not telling anyone what to do Im simply reminding people to look at whos saying whats being said. Does a new diver opinion on recovery carry as much weight as Tom Mounts?

Quote:

The thing that has pissed off my peers is your peers telling us how we should dive in order to support some of your colleagues. transistion courses, and multiple specialty required courses. And you did it without our input. everyone on this board is my peer and i will accept this to be a peer review.
rick

your talking about something completely different to what Im talking about. Im talking about published articles or threads giving advise where such advice is coming from unknown/non reviewed sources. My ONLY point is we should ENCOURGAGE disclosure of relevant experiences or qualifications of the person giving his 'opinion' before it becomes Internet fact.

To quote you, why are you so angry?

Its just my opinion - you dont have to agree

Drmike · 11th May 2007, 07:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr)

The peer review is offensive, because who decides who is a peer. I value the input from the newer divers.

definition of 'peer review'

peer review definition - Dictionaries - MSN Encarta

Definition: evaluation by experts: an assessment of an article, piece of work, or research by people who are experts on the subject

newer divers by definition are unlikley to be experts on the subject of unconcious diver recovery.

Mike · 11th May 2007, 13:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles)

Hyperox then maybe shut-off the O2 and hope a slow and controlled ascent

brings down the PO2 sufficiently. .

Whilst I'm firmly planted in the 'get them to the surface as quick as feasible' camp for non breathing divers, I'd like to make a suggestion on this one.
(Peer review value: 15 years diving, 1 year studying medicine)

Given that you want to get them to the surface, you want to put as much O2 in the loop as possible. This is on the basis that if they have fitted through hyperoxia, then it won't make unconsious and not breathing any worse, and if it's hypoxia, or hypercapnia, it's going to help.

Also consider: Once they are on the surface, the best thing for them is going to be pure O2. A Hyperoxic fit doesn't hurt you - the only problem is if it causes a case of drowing. Hypoxia on the other hand is a real bad thing.

So how about adding O2 at any depth, if you are just going to be sending them to the surface? Use O2 addition to the loop to make them positive, rather than gas to the wing?

Does this idea pass peer scrutiny?

Mike

Gilles · 11th May 2007, 16:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike)

Given that you want to get them to the surface, you want to put as much O2 in the loop as possible. This is on the basis that if they have fitted through hyperoxia, then it won't make unconsious and not breathing any worse, and if it's hypoxia, or hypercapnia, it's going to help.

I'll take that advice, but what about a post-tonic breathing victim? Assuming one has presence of mind to determine cause and finds a hyper-oxic loop, and has sufficient control to perform some decompression stop(s)

so we branch out to a specific circumstance where immediate surfacing may not be optimal..

by shutting off O2 until PO2 is brought down to acceptable level, does one help prevent a repeat seizure cycle (most important during an ascent phase)?

Until the peer review is completed and endorsed by the panel experts, I'll take the advice provided by those who dared to be maybe wrong, or not quite perfect, in the meantime. This seems better than waiting for the PR process to complete, in the case I have a breathing but unconscious buddy to take care of.

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 11th May 2007, 17:09

You won't be able to tell what caused the diver to lose consciousness in many instances. It could be hypoxia or hypercapnia among other causes. Even if you add O2 to the loop, if there is a high level of CO2 (i. e., breakthrough), the diver will still die by remaining on the loop. Besides, it would seem that it would be pretty difficult to adequately flush the loop while maintaining control of the diver.

Unless wearing a full face mask, I would suspect that the increasing pressure of added gas to the loop (or from gas expanding during ascent) would result in the DSV coming out of the mouth. This brings me to that as a starting point.

The best thing to do is to bring to the surface and then treat. During the ascent, any gas in the lungs will vent. So, if the diver is not using a BOV, then I would close the DSV so that the loop does not flood, and I would bring the diver to the surface, allowing the expanding gas to do its work during the ascent. If there is a BOV, I would activate this and bring the diver to the surface. Once at the surface, inflate the wing and remove whatever in order for the diver to receive fresh air until removed from the water.

If you are diving from a boat, the crew can take over, and you can descend and perform extended deco especially if you get the diver to the surface and then descend within a few minutes while asymptomatic. (Similar to the way that the military brings the diver to the surface and then puts the diver into a chamber within a few minutes of surfacing in order to complete decompression). If you are in a cave situation, unless you are lucky enough to have a straight shot to the surface or similar, things will be much more serious for the rescuer blowing off extended deco while trying to extract an unsconscious diver over the return route. You would have to use your best judgement in such a situation.

Gibbon · 12th May 2007, 17:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami)

You won't be able to tell what caused the diver to lose consciousness in many instances. It could be hypoxia or hypercapnia among other causes. Even if you add O2 to the loop, if there is a high level of CO2 (i. e., breakthrough), the diver will still die by remaining on the loop. Besides, it would seem that it would be pretty difficult to adequately flush the loop while maintaining control of the diver.

Unless wearing a full face mask, I would suspect that the increasing pressure of added gas to the loop (or from gas expanding during ascent) would result in the DSV coming out of the mouth. This brings me to that as a starting point.

The best thing to do is to bring to the surface and then treat. During the ascent, any gas in the lungs will vent. So, if the diver is not using a BOV, then I would close the DSV so that the loop does not flood, and I would bring the diver to the surface, allowing the expanding gas to do its work during the ascent. If there is a BOV, I would activate this and bring the diver to the surface. Once at the surface, inflate the wing and remove whatever in order for the diver to receive fresh air until removed from the water.

If you are diving from a boat, the crew can take over, and you can descend and perform extended deco especially if you get the diver to the surface and then descend within a few minutes while asymptomatic. (Similar to the way that the military brings the diver to the surface and then puts the diver into a chamber within a few minutes of surfacing in order to complete decompression). If you are in a cave situation, unless you are lucky enough to have a straight shot to the surface or similar, things will be much more serious for the rescuer blowing off extended deco while trying to extract an unsconscious diver over the return route. You would have to use your best judgement in such a situation.

You could just agree with other divers on the site that in case of emergency you would "remove valuables and launch" - at least they would know what you had planned for them,

alternatively you could specify which parts of Cedric's plan you would like to see amended or caveated and exactly what your thinking is behind the changes you would like to see made so that an inteligent discussion might be possible.

"I think I will call it ...... a wheel"

Sorry to be so negative but I dont see any purpose vague dialogue when there is a baseline you could be working from already available.

11th May 2007, 05:38	#31 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr) Mike i supported you on the meg question, but where did this anger come from for this post. what anger? a rant sure - but angry - no To repeat my only point is: Quote: Bitter experience has taught me people never get the point so Ill spell out my point clearly so there's no confusion: -I am not saying discussions are not useful. -What I am saying is in the interest of the very safety we are trying to promote we should at all times when having such discussions clearly differentiate between educated opinion and uneducated opinion simply put - everything should be stated as opinion only and weighted based on the proposers knowldedge/experiece in the subject at hand. You kinda proved that point in your post above. You gave your opinon and refereneced it to your experiences. Perfect - your knowledge experience adds weight to your opinions. On another forum there was a guy who I knew had only been diving a few months 'advising' strongly confidentaly and assuredly about a safety issue he knew absolutely nothing about. People were listening to him - someone could die. Thats the inherant danger in non peer reviewed publications (which is what internet posts are (unless challenged) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 11th May 2007 at 05:42.
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11th May 2007, 06:15	#32 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Is there ever a time when one might choose to do a flush on of an unconscious divers loop and then take them deeper? I can't help but thing that unless you are in shallow water that sending someone to the surface is pretty much certain death for them, that once unconscious that they are most likely going to die. Is getting to the surface the first order of business? If the person is not breathing they are only exhaling gas as they ascend, unable to utilize a fresh loop of flushed gas. By Flushing the loop and then descending some, the blood po2 would raise and at the same time the flushed gas would enter the lungs as the pressure compresses the gas, creating some increased chance that the diver would come to... "I think", no i'm not even that sure, that's why i'm posing it as a question. While this probably would only apply to hypoxia with complete unconsciousness, i'm curious to hear if anyone thinks it might ever be a plausible course of action, and under what circumstances. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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11th May 2007, 06:39	#33 (permalink)
diveladydive New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Optima Titan Pelagian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southeastern Florida Posts: 50	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) simply put - everything should be stated as opinion only and weighted based on the proposers knowldedge/experiece in the subject at hand. Quite true. We are lucky to have the experience, and the knowledge, of one of the world's foremost divers, not to mention rebreather divers, on this forum; Dr. Tom Mount. I have no wish to reinvent the wheel, & won't mess with it unless I can improve it. I cannot improve on Tom's post. With luck, most of us will never have to face an unconcious yet alive diver in an Rebreather, or an unconcious OC diver for that matter, at depth and with either one of us having a deco obligation. However, should that occur, we must figure out, as Tom might say, a survival-oriented response that fits the situation. __________________ *Complacency: Self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by ignorance of actual dangers or deficiencies.* *Success: A journey in which the improbable becomes possible, leading to surprising levels of achievement.* *Dr. Peri M. Blum* *Instructor, IANTD* *Member, Board of Advisors, IANTD* *www.supremedivers.com* *561-901-9715* The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and the author’s alone. Last edited by Decodiver : 11th May 2007 at 08:25. Reason: Formatted quote
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11th May 2007, 07:16	#34 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth mike The peer review is offensive, because who decides who is a peer. I value the input from the newer divers. it helps me understand their comfort level and helps me understand the current training levels that have produced them. Two months ago i was diving oc due to a reg problem. a instructor on the boat told me i would kill myself. i had pulled the plate and wing off my unit and put on my bail out reg on a rental 80. no depth gage no computer i did have a spg, no octo. no inflater hose. he demanded how i was going to figure out my deco,. i told him that as long as i had 750 pounds at thirty ft and surfaced with 250 left i would be fine. it has worked for thirty years i not see a reason to question it now.then he complained about not having an inflater hose. i told him that if you can not take a reg out of your mouth underwater an inflate your vest you should not be there. this is the kind of bs dir instructors we are teaching now. is diving safer now maybe, are our divers dumber now yes. the skill set required to dive a steel 72 without a spg and a bc, is ten times higher the the skill set required to dive trimix today. i can not remember the last time i saw an oc diver do a manual inflate, that was younger then forty years old. that said, my peers are everyone that gets wet. and if i am going to establish procedures for them i need to understand thier limitations and abilities. The thing that has pissed off my peers is your peers telling us how we should dive in order to support some of your colleagues. transistion courses, and multiple specialty required courses. And you did it without our input. everyone on this board is my peer and i will accept this to be a peer review. rick
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11th May 2007, 07:34	#35 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr) mike The peer review is offensive, because who decides who is a peer. clearly you have never carried out any research worked in a university or been involved with any kind of academic studies involving research so ill explain. Peer review is the term universally accepted throughout every university and center of research/learning worldwide. It means if you are going to say publish article/paper/journal/book on a subject such publications are reviewed by people who are accepted experts (or as near as can be found) to the subject matter. Theres nothing offensive about that. Its the way its done. Its one way to add weight to whats being said and to weed out the BS. I have no idea what your talking about me and agencies for - I dont belong to any and its got nothing to do with this discussion you have your wires crossed. Im not telling anyone what to do Im simply reminding people to look at whos saying whats being said. Does a new diver opinion on recovery carry as much weight as Tom Mounts? Quote: The thing that has pissed off my peers is your peers telling us how we should dive in order to support some of your colleagues. transistion courses, and multiple specialty required courses. And you did it without our input. everyone on this board is my peer and i will accept this to be a peer review. rick your talking about something completely different to what Im talking about. Im talking about published articles or threads giving advise where such advice is coming from unknown/non reviewed sources. My ONLY point is we should ENCOURGAGE disclosure of relevant experiences or qualifications of the person giving his 'opinion' before it becomes Internet fact. To quote you, why are you so angry? Its just my opinion - you dont have to agree __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 11th May 2007 at 07:37.
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11th May 2007, 07:43	#36 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by rdmmdr) The peer review is offensive, because who decides who is a peer. I value the input from the newer divers. definition of 'peer review' peer review definition - Dictionaries - MSN Encarta Definition: evaluation by experts: an assessment of an article, piece of work, or research by people who are experts on the subject newer divers by definition are unlikley to be experts on the subject of unconcious diver recovery. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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11th May 2007, 13:01	#37 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 327	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles) Hyperox then maybe shut-off the O2 and hope a slow and controlled ascent brings down the PO2 sufficiently. . Whilst I'm firmly planted in the 'get them to the surface as quick as feasible' camp for non breathing divers, I'd like to make a suggestion on this one. (Peer review value: 15 years diving, 1 year studying medicine) Given that you want to get them to the surface, you want to put as much O2 in the loop as possible. This is on the basis that if they have fitted through hyperoxia, then it won't make unconsious and not breathing any worse, and if it's hypoxia, or hypercapnia, it's going to help. Also consider: Once they are on the surface, the best thing for them is going to be pure O2. A Hyperoxic fit doesn't hurt you - the only problem is if it causes a case of drowing. Hypoxia on the other hand is a real bad thing. So how about adding O2 at any depth, if you are just going to be sending them to the surface? Use O2 addition to the loop to make them positive, rather than gas to the wing? Does this idea pass peer scrutiny? Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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11th May 2007, 16:40	#38 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by Mike) Given that you want to get them to the surface, you want to put as much O2 in the loop as possible. This is on the basis that if they have fitted through hyperoxia, then it won't make unconsious and not breathing any worse, and if it's hypoxia, or hypercapnia, it's going to help. I'll take that advice, but what about a post-tonic breathing victim? Assuming one has presence of mind to determine cause and finds a hyper-oxic loop, and has sufficient control to perform some decompression stop(s) so we branch out to a specific circumstance where immediate surfacing may not be optimal.. by shutting off O2 until PO2 is brought down to acceptable level, does one help prevent a repeat seizure cycle (most important during an ascent phase)? Until the peer review is completed and endorsed by the panel experts, I'll take the advice provided by those who dared to be maybe wrong, or not quite perfect, in the meantime. This seems better than waiting for the PR process to complete, in the case I have a breathing but unconscious buddy to take care of. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 11th May 2007 at 16:44.
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11th May 2007, 17:09	#39 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,073	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth You won't be able to tell what caused the diver to lose consciousness in many instances. It could be hypoxia or hypercapnia among other causes. Even if you add O2 to the loop, if there is a high level of CO2 (i. e., breakthrough), the diver will still die by remaining on the loop. Besides, it would seem that it would be pretty difficult to adequately flush the loop while maintaining control of the diver. Unless wearing a full face mask, I would suspect that the increasing pressure of added gas to the loop (or from gas expanding during ascent) would result in the DSV coming out of the mouth. This brings me to that as a starting point. The best thing to do is to bring to the surface and then treat. During the ascent, any gas in the lungs will vent. So, if the diver is not using a BOV, then I would close the DSV so that the loop does not flood, and I would bring the diver to the surface, allowing the expanding gas to do its work during the ascent. If there is a BOV, I would activate this and bring the diver to the surface. Once at the surface, inflate the wing and remove whatever in order for the diver to receive fresh air until removed from the water. If you are diving from a boat, the crew can take over, and you can descend and perform extended deco especially if you get the diver to the surface and then descend within a few minutes while asymptomatic. (Similar to the way that the military brings the diver to the surface and then puts the diver into a chamber within a few minutes of surfacing in order to complete decompression). If you are in a cave situation, unless you are lucky enough to have a straight shot to the surface or similar, things will be much more serious for the rescuer blowing off extended deco while trying to extract an unsconscious diver over the return route. You would have to use your best judgement in such a situation. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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12th May 2007, 17:36	#40 (permalink)
Gibbon Southern Monkey Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: East Devon Posts: 226	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami) You won't be able to tell what caused the diver to lose consciousness in many instances. It could be hypoxia or hypercapnia among other causes. Even if you add O2 to the loop, if there is a high level of CO2 (i. e., breakthrough), the diver will still die by remaining on the loop. Besides, it would seem that it would be pretty difficult to adequately flush the loop while maintaining control of the diver. Unless wearing a full face mask, I would suspect that the increasing pressure of added gas to the loop (or from gas expanding during ascent) would result in the DSV coming out of the mouth. This brings me to that as a starting point. The best thing to do is to bring to the surface and then treat. During the ascent, any gas in the lungs will vent. So, if the diver is not using a BOV, then I would close the DSV so that the loop does not flood, and I would bring the diver to the surface, allowing the expanding gas to do its work during the ascent. If there is a BOV, I would activate this and bring the diver to the surface. Once at the surface, inflate the wing and remove whatever in order for the diver to receive fresh air until removed from the water. If you are diving from a boat, the crew can take over, and you can descend and perform extended deco especially if you get the diver to the surface and then descend within a few minutes while asymptomatic. (Similar to the way that the military brings the diver to the surface and then puts the diver into a chamber within a few minutes of surfacing in order to complete decompression). If you are in a cave situation, unless you are lucky enough to have a straight shot to the surface or similar, things will be much more serious for the rescuer blowing off extended deco while trying to extract an unsconscious diver over the return route. You would have to use your best judgement in such a situation. You could just agree with other divers on the site that in case of emergency you would "remove valuables and launch" - at least they would know what you had planned for them, alternatively you could specify which parts of Cedric's plan you would like to see amended or caveated and exactly what your thinking is behind the changes you would like to see made so that an inteligent discussion might be possible. "I think I will call it ...... a wheel" Sorry to be so negative but I dont see any purpose vague dialogue when there is a baseline you could be working from already available.
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