Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth

Janos · 7th May 2007, 20:43

I think [1] the BSAC CCR course involves a rescue from depth

Janos

[1] - Only think - I haven't done the course.

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 7th May 2007, 20:57

Just a note to add: You have to be careful about going with the BOV if the mix will be hypoxic in the shallows. The diver will be just as dead via lack of oxygen from the mix as from drowning.

rdmmdr · 8th May 2007, 05:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami)

Just a note to add: You have to be careful about going with the BOV if the mix will be hypoxic in the shallows. The diver will be just as dead via lack of oxygen from the mix as from drowning.

that is why hypoxic mixes should never be plumbed into a bov. With an o2 tox you have two to six minutes, with hypoxia you have 30 seconds. at the old accent rates of 60ft a minute, a hyper mix will be fine in a minute. send him up. Any individual involved is due for a chamber ride anyways.
rick

Gibbon · 8th May 2007, 05:40

Great thing for people to know more about and then for them to actually practice, I have had several practice sessions and bringing an unconscious diver to the surface in a controlled manner (doing stops) is an incredibly hard skill to master - I look forward to the day when I can be more confident in my ability.

PLEASE use the following article for a baseline for discussion, otherwise we will simply get 100 ideas laid out again without an actual protocol being developed. There are bound to be some different ideas and points which people disagree on but without a baseline it will be impossible to know if any real knowledge share or community learning has occurred!

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...her-diver.html

**RichClark** · 8th May 2007, 08:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

When I have a group of students who do very well in class and needs to be pushed with more challenges, I create a (controlled) Rebreather rescue exercise that involve helping another RB diver from the bottom.

This helps to drive home the skill set of understanding how a Rebreather works, as well as developing the multi-tasking skill set of PO2/buoyancy monitoring.

Each diver gets to play rescuer as well as rescuee so they could think about what they could do better.

Such exercise is outside the scope of the training agenda, but the students usually find it interesting as well as challenging (especially on mCCR units).

When we did this (rescuee was blind), I felt it was a useful exercise. Although non of the lifts were perfect it certainly made you think about what you need to do in terms of controlling the victim, buoyancy and controlling PPO2 on a KISS.

Cheers

Rich

Gene_Hobbs · 8th May 2007, 17:55

This has been a great thread. Just thought someone might be interested in reading more on why divers go unconscious. Here is the UHMS workshop on the topic:

Lanphier EH (ed). Unconscious Diver: Respiratory Control and Other Contributing Factors. 25thUndersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society Workshop. UHMS Publication Number 52WS(RC)1-25-82.Bethesda: Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society; 1982; 160 pages. RRR ID: 4278

cedricverdier · 9th May 2007, 00:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gibbon)

Great thing for people to know more about and then for them to actually practice, I have had several practice sessions and bringing an unconscious diver to the surface in a controlled manner (doing stops) is an incredibly hard skill to master - I look forward to the day when I can be more confident in my ability.

PLEASE use the following article for a baseline for discussion, otherwise we will simply get 100 ideas laid out again without an actual protocol being developed. There are bound to be some different ideas and points which people disagree on but without a baseline it will be impossible to know if any real knowledge share or community learning has occurred!

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...her-diver.html

Hi,

Just to let you know there is an updated version of this article (mainly the flowchart) on my website.
The idea was to keep the protocol as simple as possible.

Cheers

montyg · 9th May 2007, 15:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Digger)

Personally, I dive a KISS, and I am weighted such that with my gear still attached (torches and stages) with the counterlungs full I am neutral. So that's one thing to forget about.

Digs.

Just got back from a 2 week diving trip and saw this post. A very very valid topic, and rescue beig my fav topic in general and fav course to teach (on OC, that is)

I have spent a little bit of time thinking about this and the thing that scares the *&@# out of me is a flooded loop and the resulting negative buoyancy.

It can't be easy to deal with.

Even with or without a BOV the loop can still flood, maybe even during the rescue if not switched to bailout position ....

Just a thought.

rgds
monty

robprice · 10th May 2007, 02:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Having actual done this, I would like to add some comments...

Remember that the diver passed out most probably from breathing the loop. And it could be hypoxic (among other possibilities). So bring him up while keeping him on the same loop probably won't help to revive him with the PO2 dropping by ascending.

However, it could be a lot more dangerous to try to switch mouthpiece.

If he has a BOV, switch BOV to OC could help adding fresh gas IF the gas supply is adequate (i.e. shallow depth, connected to large off-board source, etc).

If the gas source is limited and it is possible to run out of supply before reaching the surface - or you simply can't work out the gas source, keep him on the loop and check the PO2 display. Add O2 as needed.

If you can't do all 5 things at once, simply add O2 periodically and slowly as you ascend should keep to maintain the loop breathable if it was on bottom.

Remember to look out for your own PO2 handset as well.

Ok first of the above incident here was my self, i should have done a report but I was not sure of how to report the facts (Will do one soon).
If it had not been for Phi I would be dead now, (very sobering).

At the time I was diving the vision up grade for the very first time.
Thinking the problem had been solved I dived again but again the same but this time things were a lot worse and again it was down to quick thinking and response of the people involved in the rescue things were put under control.

I will make a full report on both incidents to explain why these hits occured.
With names of all concerned.

But the out come is first of is due to excellant skills and quick thinking and no panicking of the divers around me I am here today
I will not dive now with out a BOV due to this.

rdmmdr · 10th May 2007, 02:52

rob

well done it takes a brave man to admit to his errors. i would love to see the full report on the incident. God put erasers on pencils, because humans have a tendancy to screw up. and that is why every rig needs a bov.
rick

7th May 2007, 20:43	#11 (permalink)
Janos "Two Sheds" Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: East Surrey Posts: 580	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth I think [1] the BSAC CCR course involves a rescue from depth Janos [1] - Only think - I haven't done the course. __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed
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7th May 2007, 20:57	#12 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 1,937	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Just a note to add: You have to be careful about going with the BOV if the mix will be hypoxic in the shallows. The diver will be just as dead via lack of oxygen from the mix as from drowning. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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8th May 2007, 05:03	#13 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami) Just a note to add: You have to be careful about going with the BOV if the mix will be hypoxic in the shallows. The diver will be just as dead via lack of oxygen from the mix as from drowning. that is why hypoxic mixes should never be plumbed into a bov. With an o2 tox you have two to six minutes, with hypoxia you have 30 seconds. at the old accent rates of 60ft a minute, a hyper mix will be fine in a minute. send him up. Any individual involved is due for a chamber ride anyways. rick
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8th May 2007, 05:40	#14 (permalink)
Gibbon Southern Monkey Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: East Devon Posts: 226	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Great thing for people to know more about and then for them to actually practice, I have had several practice sessions and bringing an unconscious diver to the surface in a controlled manner (doing stops) is an incredibly hard skill to master - I look forward to the day when I can be more confident in my ability. PLEASE use the following article for a baseline for discussion, otherwise we will simply get 100 ideas laid out again without an actual protocol being developed. There are bound to be some different ideas and points which people disagree on but without a baseline it will be impossible to know if any real knowledge share or community learning has occurred! http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...her-diver.html
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8th May 2007, 08:20	#15 (permalink)
RichClark Classic KISS No. 226 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hove, UK Posts: 766	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) When I have a group of students who do very well in class and needs to be pushed with more challenges, I create a (controlled) Rebreather rescue exercise that involve helping another RB diver from the bottom. This helps to drive home the skill set of understanding how a Rebreather works, as well as developing the multi-tasking skill set of PO2/buoyancy monitoring. Each diver gets to play rescuer as well as rescuee so they could think about what they could do better. Such exercise is outside the scope of the training agenda, but the students usually find it interesting as well as challenging (especially on mCCR units). When we did this (rescuee was blind), I felt it was a useful exercise. Although non of the lifts were perfect it certainly made you think about what you need to do in terms of controlling the victim, buoyancy and controlling PPO2 on a KISS. Cheers Rich __________________ The more I learn about women, the more I want to go diving... just don't tell my wife I said that To taste something a little different, try http://www.thechillikitchen.co.uk
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8th May 2007, 17:55	#16 (permalink)
Gene_Hobbs Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Durham, NC, USA Posts: 113	Unconscious Diver: Respiratory Control and Other Contributing Factors. This has been a great thread. Just thought someone might be interested in reading more on why divers go unconscious. Here is the UHMS workshop on the topic: Lanphier EH (ed). Unconscious Diver: Respiratory Control and Other Contributing Factors. 25thUndersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society Workshop. UHMS Publication Number 52WS(RC)1-25-82.Bethesda: Undersea and Hyperbaric Medical Society; 1982; 160 pages. RRR ID: 4278 __________________ http://rubicon-foundation.org/ Home of the Rubicon Research Repository. For help getting started with the Repository, please visit our FAQ page. PLEASE support our work. "Oxygen is addictive and deadly. Everyone who uses it will eventually die" --RW Hamilton, PhD 1991
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9th May 2007, 00:01	#17 (permalink)
cedricverdier S21 M.I.B. Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Worldwide! Posts: 488	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by Gibbon) Great thing for people to know more about and then for them to actually practice, I have had several practice sessions and bringing an unconscious diver to the surface in a controlled manner (doing stops) is an incredibly hard skill to master - I look forward to the day when I can be more confident in my ability. PLEASE use the following article for a baseline for discussion, otherwise we will simply get 100 ideas laid out again without an actual protocol being developed. There are bound to be some different ideas and points which people disagree on but without a baseline it will be impossible to know if any real knowledge share or community learning has occurred! http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...her-diver.html Hi, Just to let you know there is an updated version of this article (mainly the flowchart) on my website. The idea was to keep the protocol as simple as possible. Cheers __________________ Cedric Verdier PADI Course Director, ANDI-IANTD-PSAI-TDI-DSAT-DAN-NAUI-CMAS Instructor Trainer Trimix (CCR and OC) and Cave Diving Instructor Trainer www.CedricVerdier.com DIRrebreather member
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9th May 2007, 15:33	#18 (permalink)
montyg Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 217	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by Digger) Personally, I dive a KISS, and I am weighted such that with my gear still attached (torches and stages) with the counterlungs full I am neutral. So that's one thing to forget about. Digs. Just got back from a 2 week diving trip and saw this post. A very very valid topic, and rescue beig my fav topic in general and fav course to teach (on OC, that is) I have spent a little bit of time thinking about this and the thing that scares the *&@# out of me is a flooded loop and the resulting negative buoyancy. It can't be easy to deal with. Even with or without a BOV the loop can still flood, maybe even during the rescue if not switched to bailout position .... Just a thought. rgds monty
(Online)

10th May 2007, 02:44	#19 (permalink)
robprice Bob.P Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Dubai Posts: 44	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Having actual done this, I would like to add some comments... Remember that the diver passed out most probably from breathing the loop. And it could be hypoxic (among other possibilities). So bring him up while keeping him on the same loop probably won't help to revive him with the PO2 dropping by ascending. However, it could be a lot more dangerous to try to switch mouthpiece. If he has a BOV, switch BOV to OC could help adding fresh gas IF the gas supply is adequate (i.e. shallow depth, connected to large off-board source, etc). If the gas source is limited and it is possible to run out of supply before reaching the surface - or you simply can't work out the gas source, keep him on the loop and check the PO2 display. Add O2 as needed. If you can't do all 5 things at once, simply add O2 periodically and slowly as you ascend should keep to maintain the loop breathable if it was on bottom. Remember to look out for your own PO2 handset as well. Ok first of the above incident here was my self, i should have done a report but I was not sure of how to report the facts (Will do one soon). If it had not been for Phi I would be dead now, (very sobering). At the time I was diving the vision up grade for the very first time. Thinking the problem had been solved I dived again but again the same but this time things were a lot worse and again it was down to quick thinking and response of the people involved in the rescue things were put under control. I will make a full report on both incidents to explain why these hits occured. With names of all concerned. But the out come is first of is due to excellant skills and quick thinking and no panicking of the divers around me I am here today I will not dive now with out a BOV due to this.
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10th May 2007, 02:52	#20 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: Bringing an unconscious Rebreather diver up from depth rob well done it takes a brave man to admit to his errors. i would love to see the full report on the incident. God put erasers on pencils, because humans have a tendancy to screw up. and that is why every rig needs a bov. rick
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