Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off?

jptaylor9 · 18th January 2007, 19:27

Following on from another thread, should units turn themselves on if you enter the water with electronics OFF?

I used to think YES, my Vr3 does why not my Inspo.

I've now come around to the view that NO they shouldn't, it's the divers responsibility to turn them on & the O2/Dil cylinders. Then pre-check the unit & check again once in the water.

Technically, I'm sure it's easy enough to do (most computer & dive timers do it) but should we opt for that level of automation?

JT

Stephane · 18th January 2007, 19:33

Hello,

I don't dive an eCCR and I don't think that the setpoint controlers should be turned on automagically while entering water.
But, I think they should buzz and flash to warn the diver that something is wrong.

silent running · 18th January 2007, 19:42

I said yes, but it's a yes to any system that has a start up procedure that requires more than just flipping a switch. If you can't get your PO2 and have the unit start injecting from flipping 1 switch, then yes the unit should switch itself on. Diver's responsibility or not, every second counts when you are sinking with dark electronics and no gas being injected. It seems clear enough that there would be few more of us around if there were wet switches on all ECCRs that do more than SP control and which cannot be quckly, very quickly turned on with one simple action.

**Gill Envy** · 18th January 2007, 20:03

thanks for taking this digression out of the other post and giving it a thread of it's own!

I'm of the mind that you either take the KISS approach and do that right or fully embrace the eCCR approach.**As we know there are widely diverging opinions on this and i think they all have degrees of validity relative to the application and preferences of the diver.

I've chosen the eCCR approach and do not assume that more bells and whistles make me lasier and more dangerous as a diver.**i dont' trust any of them, they are all back ups to my brain.**I don't fly manually but i do monitor the handset and HUD religiously and pretty much try and take the attitude that i expect it to be malfunctioning and am looking for evidence of that, not the other way around.

My reasoning for wanting the electronics to have a wet switch is that the entire predive sequence is something that is repeated over and over.**I know from my study and practice of hypnosis years ago that the brain can get easily tricked into thinking that something that didn't just happen actually did just happen.**I don't think people generally forget to turn on their unit per Se, i think they basically play a memory of having done it in the past.**Habits happen on a rather unfiltered level and can easily drift into a level of semi-consciousness where simple but major mix ups are more common than any of us want to admit.

a wet switch would allow the system to allert you in a variety of ways that you have messed up and would give you more time to deal with things like a closed o2 valve.

That said, if you forget to turn on your unit, i think it should give you a bit of a hard time when you jump in the water, bothersome to the point that your reptilian brain and your frontal lobe will get annoid enough to avoid forgetting to turn it on. i think it would increase the number of cross checks and think that would be a good thing IMHO.
******

Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9)

Following on from another thread, should units turn themselves on if you enter the water with electronics OFF?

I used to think YES, my Vr3 does why not my Inspo.

I've now come around to the view that NO they shouldn't, it's the divers responsibility to turn them on & the O2/Dil cylinders. Then pre-check the unit & check again once in the water.

Technically, I'm sure it's easy enough to do (most computer & dive timers do it) but should we opt for that level of automation?

JT

Jim · 18th January 2007, 20:16

My opinion would be NO. Diving Uk water most of the time I am anal about a pre - breathe, which includes looking at my hand sets. I don't understand why it is so difficult, and struggle to comprehend someone, missing a pre - breathe which should necessitate hopefully checking hand sets and the units ability to hold a set point..... and therefore being on?

I must confess to jumping in with the flow stop on the ADV being switched off, but in my rapid decent to the 6m bubble check (and inside out lungs !!) it is not difficult to chuck in O2 (which is on and used during the pre breathe) or flip the flow stop switch.

I agree with John, we have responsibility for our own actions and the possible consequences. As has been said before people will die diving OC & CC - period - we are not designed to be there. At least 3 people died today during the UK storms - mother nature biting us in the arse again ... guess what, it happens. Am I the only one who feels the answers lie with us the divers and our quests to go deeper for longer and the excitement that goes with it, rather than our units (and their short comings) of choice ? The perfect unit doesn't exist .... it never will. It would need to come with a buddy making sure you kitted up properly, followed the instrcutions to the letter and then sat on your shoulder the whole dive banging on your head ..... check your PPO2 !!!!!

Take great care ...... but ..... admit responsibilty for your own actions and life. If it scares you that much, don't dive ...

Dive safely - sorry for the waffle, got stuck on a train tonight (wrong trees on the line) and needed to vent!

Cheers.

UKSteve · 18th January 2007, 20:33

I voted for the third option (surprise surprise!!) but think there is a 4th option as I described in the original discussion...

Unit wakes up, screams at you in every way possible to get your wayward attention and tells you clearly to BAIL OUT (because it is not capable of working properly) and at same times tries to maintain a notional set point that (if the O2 is switched on) could prevent hypoxia until such time as you do bail out.

Sorry if I now sound like I am

but dammit, I wonder how many people might be alive today if this feature was on the units (that dont already do it). Even just one would be worth it I think...

Steve

UKSteve · 18th January 2007, 20:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim)

I don't understand why it is so difficult, and struggle to comprehend someone, missing a pre - breathe which should necessitate hopefully checking hand sets and the units ability to hold a set point..... and therefore being on?

I think the crux of the matter is that the APD units can be pre-breathed etc and then switched off (perhaps to conserve batteries while the skipper goes round in circles to finally shot the wreck on the 4th attempt). I understand that the MEG will go to sleep after a period of time on the surface after switch on ...but would then wake up on hitting the water. The APD unit will, however, not wake up again if, in the subsequent rush to get into the water, the user fails to remember to switch it back on. in this situation the O2 is probably still on and so the functionality I describe above above would at least maintain life..

Steve

Depth-junkie · 18th January 2007, 20:37

it's a NO for me, IMHO it will give people more of a false sence of security for them if they cut corners....."Ah it will be alright this time if i miss a pre-breath and rush to get in the water, the unit will turn it's self on"

Dont be a dip shit, turn it on, calibrate it, pre-breath it and then go diving. It's not hard!!!!

If your that much of a knob that you can forget to follow a few simple rules I.E if you want to use an electrical item you have to turn something on to be able to use it, let me ask a question....Do any of you sit down on the sofa in front of the T.V all ready to watch the footy staring at a blank screen for a few min's before you realise that you forgot to switch it on??? I doubt it!!!! if you want to watch the footy you turn the T.V on, pretty simple stuff

There are enough dick heads out there as it is, dont give em more excuses to cut corners

ATB
Gareth

UKSteve · 18th January 2007, 20:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie)

There are enough dick heads out there as it is, dont give em more excuses to cut corners

Gareth,

Years ago I had to investigate a fatality on a drilling rig. A poor sod had got too close to the rotating part of the drillfloor while washing down the area with a hose. Somehow he stepped on the rotating floor, got entangled in the machinery and before the Driller could stop it, was swung around by the leg. His head then got smashed to pulp when it hit a nearby bit of pipework.

At the ensuing enquiry I proposed the implementation of some pretty simple (and existing) equipment that covered the rotating part of the floor - preventing the same accident occurring again in the future. Why was it not commonplace at the time of the accident? Sadly, the inertia to change from the "its always been this way" boys. The cost? About $5k per rig.

One dick head at the presentation (who was resisting the expenditure) was heard to comment that "if he was dum enough to get that close to the rotary table then he deserved to get hurt".

Sorry...but that is not my approach to accident investigation and prevention... is it really yours?

Steve

decoweenie · 18th January 2007, 21:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve)

One dick head at the presentation (who was resisting the expenditure) was heard to comment that "if he was dum enough to get that close to the rotary table then he deserved to get hurt".

No, I am sorry but it is called "common freaking sense".

I have been plenty of times on the rig floor in my 20-year experience, and when the kelly is rotating at 100+ RPM, I don't get near it...

We could invent all sort of fool-proof devices, and the world will present you with plenty of better and smarter fools!

If someone doesn't pay attention to what he is breathing despite of what he was trained to do from the first day diving the rig, he will kill himself another way.

There isn't and won't be a perfect system that will prevent someone from ignoring their training, complacency kills. Building what supposedly a more elaborate system will increase the level of complacency to depend on the system to save one's ass.

There is no prevention system on the KISS. And every KISS owner realizes that. No KISS fatality (yet) from complacency of dependency on the system to keep the diver alive.

View Poll Results: Should units turn themselve on if you enter water with them off?
Yes & use last save calibration	52	32.50%
No, divers responsibility	64	40.00%
No, but sound buzzer to alert diver (or other alert)	44	27.50%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

18th January 2007, 19:27	#1 (permalink)
jptaylor9 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 316	Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Following on from another thread, should units turn themselves on if you enter the water with electronics OFF? I used to think YES, my Vr3 does why not my Inspo. I've now come around to the view that NO they shouldn't, it's the divers responsibility to turn them on & the O2/Dil cylinders. Then pre-check the unit & check again once in the water. Technically, I'm sure it's easy enough to do (most computer & dive timers do it) but should we opt for that level of automation? JT
(Online)

18th January 2007, 19:33	#2 (permalink)
Stephane Stéphane Acounis Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Nantes - France Posts: 788	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Hello, I don't dive an eCCR and I don't think that the setpoint controlers should be turned on automagically while entering water. But, I think they should buzz and flash to warn the diver that something is wrong. __________________ Stéphane
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18th January 2007, 19:42	#3 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? I said yes, but it's a yes to any system that has a start up procedure that requires more than just flipping a switch. If you can't get your PO2 and have the unit start injecting from flipping 1 switch, then yes the unit should switch itself on. Diver's responsibility or not, every second counts when you are sinking with dark electronics and no gas being injected. It seems clear enough that there would be few more of us around if there were wet switches on all ECCRs that do more than SP control and which cannot be quckly, very quickly turned on with one simple action.
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18th January 2007, 20:03	#4 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,347	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? thanks for taking this digression out of the other post and giving it a thread of it's own! I'm of the mind that you either take the KISS approach and do that right or fully embrace the eCCR approach.As we know there are widely diverging opinions on this and i think they all have degrees of validity relative to the application and preferences of the diver. I've chosen the eCCR approach and do not assume that more bells and whistles make me lasier and more dangerous as a diver.i dont' trust any of them, they are all back ups to my brain.I don't fly manually but i do monitor the handset and HUD religiously and pretty much try and take the attitude that i expect it to be malfunctioning and am looking for evidence of that, not the other way around. My reasoning for wanting the electronics to have a wet switch is that the entire predive sequence is something that is repeated over and over.I know from my study and practice of hypnosis years ago that the brain can get easily tricked into thinking that something that didn't just happen actually did just happen.I don't think people generally forget to turn on their unit per Se, i think they basically play a memory of having done it in the past.Habits happen on a rather unfiltered level and can easily drift into a level of semi-consciousness where simple but major mix ups are more common than any of us want to admit. a wet switch would allow the system to allert you in a variety of ways that you have messed up and would give you more time to deal with things like a closed o2 valve. That said, if you forget to turn on your unit, i think it should give you a bit of a hard time when you jump in the water, bothersome to the point that your reptilian brain and your frontal lobe will get annoid enough to avoid forgetting to turn it on. i think it would increase the number of cross checks and think that would be a good thing IMHO. **** Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9**) Following on from another thread, should units turn themselves on if you enter the water with electronics OFF? I used to think YES, my Vr3 does why not my Inspo. I've now come around to the view that NO they shouldn't, it's the divers responsibility to turn them on & the O2/Dil cylinders. Then pre-check the unit & check again once in the water. Technically, I'm sure it's easy enough to do (most computer & dive timers do it) but should we opt for that level of automation? JT __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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18th January 2007, 20:16	#5 (permalink)
Jim Lovable Cockhead ! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Purley, UK Posts: 152	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? My opinion would be NO. Diving Uk water most of the time I am anal about a pre - breathe, which includes looking at my hand sets. I don't understand why it is so difficult, and struggle to comprehend someone, missing a pre - breathe which should necessitate hopefully checking hand sets and the units ability to hold a set point..... and therefore being on? I must confess to jumping in with the flow stop on the ADV being switched off, but in my rapid decent to the 6m bubble check (and inside out lungs !!) it is not difficult to chuck in O2 (which is on and used during the pre breathe) or flip the flow stop switch. I agree with John, we have responsibility for our own actions and the possible consequences. As has been said before people will die diving OC & CC - period - we are not designed to be there. At least 3 people died today during the UK storms - mother nature biting us in the arse again ... guess what, it happens. Am I the only one who feels the answers lie with us the divers and our quests to go deeper for longer and the excitement that goes with it, rather than our units (and their short comings) of choice ? The perfect unit doesn't exist .... it never will. It would need to come with a buddy making sure you kitted up properly, followed the instrcutions to the letter and then sat on your shoulder the whole dive banging on your head ..... check your PPO2 !!!!! Take great care ...... but ..... admit responsibilty for your own actions and life. If it scares you that much, don't dive ... Dive safely - sorry for the waffle, got stuck on a train tonight (wrong trees on the line) and needed to vent! Cheers. __________________ Jim Spence
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18th January 2007, 20:33	#6 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? I voted for the third option (surprise surprise!!) but think there is a 4th option as I described in the original discussion... Unit wakes up, screams at you in every way possible to get your wayward attention and tells you clearly to BAIL OUT (because it is not capable of working properly) and at same times tries to maintain a notional set point that (if the O2 is switched on) could prevent hypoxia until such time as you do bail out. Sorry if I now sound like I am but dammit, I wonder how many people might be alive today if this feature was on the units (that dont already do it). Even just one would be worth it I think... Steve
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18th January 2007, 20:36	#7 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim) I don't understand why it is so difficult, and struggle to comprehend someone, missing a pre - breathe which should necessitate hopefully checking hand sets and the units ability to hold a set point..... and therefore being on? I think the crux of the matter is that the APD units can be pre-breathed etc and then switched off (perhaps to conserve batteries while the skipper goes round in circles to finally shot the wreck on the 4th attempt). I understand that the MEG will go to sleep after a period of time on the surface after switch on ...but would then wake up on hitting the water. The APD unit will, however, not wake up again if, in the subsequent rush to get into the water, the user fails to remember to switch it back on. in this situation the O2 is probably still on and so the functionality I describe above above would at least maintain life.. Steve Last edited by UKSteve : 18th January 2007 at 20:39.
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18th January 2007, 20:37	#8 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? it's a NO for me, IMHO it will give people more of a false sence of security for them if they cut corners....."Ah it will be alright this time if i miss a pre-breath and rush to get in the water, the unit will turn it's self on" Dont be a dip shit, turn it on, calibrate it, pre-breath it and then go diving. It's not hard!!!! If your that much of a knob that you can forget to follow a few simple rules I.E if you want to use an electrical item you have to turn something on to be able to use it, let me ask a question....Do any of you sit down on the sofa in front of the T.V all ready to watch the footy staring at a blank screen for a few min's before you realise that you forgot to switch it on??? I doubt it!!!! if you want to watch the footy you turn the T.V on, pretty simple stuff There are enough dick heads out there as it is, dont give em more excuses to cut corners ATB Gareth
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18th January 2007, 20:53	#9 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie) There are enough dick heads out there as it is, dont give em more excuses to cut corners Gareth, Years ago I had to investigate a fatality on a drilling rig. A poor sod had got too close to the rotating part of the drillfloor while washing down the area with a hose. Somehow he stepped on the rotating floor, got entangled in the machinery and before the Driller could stop it, was swung around by the leg. His head then got smashed to pulp when it hit a nearby bit of pipework. At the ensuing enquiry I proposed the implementation of some pretty simple (and existing) equipment that covered the rotating part of the floor - preventing the same accident occurring again in the future. Why was it not commonplace at the time of the accident? Sadly, the inertia to change from the "its always been this way" boys. The cost? About $5k per rig. One dick head at the presentation (who was resisting the expenditure) was heard to comment that "if he was dum enough to get that close to the rotary table then he deserved to get hurt". Sorry...but that is not my approach to accident investigation and prevention... is it really yours? Steve Last edited by UKSteve : 18th January 2007 at 20:59.
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18th January 2007, 21:10	#10 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve) One dick head at the presentation (who was resisting the expenditure) was heard to comment that "if he was dum enough to get that close to the rotary table then he deserved to get hurt". No, I am sorry but it is called "common freaking sense". I have been plenty of times on the rig floor in my 20-year experience, and when the kelly is rotating at 100+ RPM, I don't get near it... We could invent all sort of fool-proof devices, and the world will present you with plenty of better and smarter fools! If someone doesn't pay attention to what he is breathing despite of what he was trained to do from the first day diving the rig, he will kill himself another way. There isn't and won't be a perfect system that will prevent someone from ignoring their training, complacency kills. Building what supposedly a more elaborate system will increase the level of complacency to depend on the system to save one's ass. There is no prevention system on the KISS. And every KISS owner realizes that. No KISS fatality (yet) from complacency of dependency on the system to keep the diver alive. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM Last edited by decoweenie : 18th January 2007 at 21:17.
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