Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off?

UKSteve · 19th January 2007, 06:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

If you know that if you don't turn it on you will die for sure, then it becomes like the KISS - you know if you don't look you will die for sure.

IMHO the best guard against complacency is the knowledge that if you don't do something its not "you might die" - its "you WILL die."

My evidence for this is, of course, the KISS.

The trouble is the evidence against this is a number of fatalities!!!

Does the K1 use an external mechanical power switch? Or does it use "soft" push / finger pad buttons? Will it have an integrated pressure gauge and logic software to maintain set point?

I cannot see the conflict between having the unit NOT start trying to work normally under water if finds itself going from atmospheric pressure to say 10ft /2 metres and being programmed to respond ONLY to this level of actual pressure change (not relative) by going mental and yelling audibly and visually at the distracted diver (and perhaps try to maintain a life supporting ppO2 level ...you dont want it to...you close your O2) ...this is option 3...

Steve

***caveseeker7*** · 19th January 2007, 06:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

So what does it do? it turns its self OFF during the prebreath because its dry and not under pressure.

Maybe you should give a big hug.

And some tongue.

***jradomski*** · 19th January 2007, 07:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve)

The trouble is the evidence against this is a number of fatalities!!!

Does the K1 use an external mechanical power switch? Or does it use "soft" push / finger pad buttons? Will it have an integrated pressure gauge and logic software to maintain set point?

I cannot see the conflict between having the unit NOT start trying to work normally under water if finds itself going from atmospheric pressure to say 10ft /2 metres and being programmed to respond ONLY to this level of actual pressure change (not relative) by going mental and yelling audibly and visually at the distracted diver (and perhaps try to maintain a life supporting ppO2 level ...you dont want it to...you close your O2) ...this is option 3...

Steve

also the KISS system in itself is not proof.. On an MCCR thats reasonably tuned to your metaboloc needs the displays turned off may not kill you.. its certainly not going to kill you in any short order.. as long as your oxygen is turned on you are getting it added to the loop, pair this with a descent.. it takes much more than a few minutes (unless you were busting your ass) for the loop to go hypoxic.. On an eccr with the electronics off its just takes minutes. so on a KISS style system you have time to realize that you screwed up, on an eCCR you don't

silent running · 19th January 2007, 08:00

[quote=jradomski;90978]also the KISS system in itself is not proof.. On an MCCR thats reasonably tuned to your metaboloc needs the displays turned off may not kill you.. its certainly not going to kill you in any short order.. [quote]

Yes Joe, unless there's a problem with the mass flow orifice-blocks up or your IP creeps-and you don't remember to look at the displays frequently enough. Not even MCCRs in all their simplicty, are fool proof and have their own choke/failure point-literally. IMHO a decent HUD and good monitoring habits-crosschecking PO2s with your 2dry-are the best security we can get. And this still presumes you have verified your cells to at least 1.6...

But you already know this Joe, others may not.

If you're going for the all-inclusive intergrated ECCR thing with no hard on/off power switch, IMHO, as I said above, it's very good to have a wet and/or pressure switch. Most of the complaints about them seem to be that they don't work properly/software is not sophisticated enough. These are minor problems and should be easily solved. And once the bugs are worked out and the unit only turns on/off at the surface by the user, and always turns on underwater without the user, who would complain? We always make our best decisions on the surface, not while under pressure.

dave t · 19th January 2007, 09:01

presure switches on thier own are no good, they wont switch the unit on if your on the surface, I think we lost at least a couple breathing a switched off unit on the surface. Wet switches still dont protect against not filling/turning on your o2, replacing scrubber when you should, replacing cells when you should, and more importantly batteries when you should. I remember my dive computers that had wet switches that didnt work if you forgot to clean the salt deposits off them!! or if you didnt dry them completly they would just stay on and flat the battery.

maybe wet switches are better designed these days!

there was one incident where the soon to be victim was approached underwater by another diver and asked "why is you buzzer going nuts"?

the victim shrugged gestured with his hands "I dont know" and just turned and swam off. That was the last time the diver was seen alive!!

I guess however many failsafes we have built into a rebreather Darwin will always find a way around them!

***Beanie*** · 19th January 2007, 09:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie)

Now hear is the thing the vision wont allow you to switch all controllers underwater, C1 yes, C2 yes...but not both at the same time. This in my point of veiw is a crap idea. I had to isolate the 02 cylinder whilst doing a OC ascent from 64m which is not to bad, but compared to just holding down a button is a total pain in the arse.

Don't you turn controller 1 off then controller 2 off to turn both off?
That's how I understand it.

back on topic
Auto turn could be a good thing but if it becomes relied on it becomes a problem, what if the unit is well out of calibration?

My thought would be turn on when wet and scream at you and give you a message to surface and sort it out.

Drmike · 19th January 2007, 10:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

presure switches on thier own are no good, they wont switch the unit on if your on the surface,

Agreed - thats why I like the new (coming soon) Boris method.

It powers up as soon as there is any drop in PPO2 sensed by the always monitoring sensors
[when the unit is off it still polls the sensors in sleep mode, any drop and it turns itself on)

With this method surface breathing or jumping in will be covered,

silent running · 19th January 2007, 10:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Agreed - thats why I like the new (coming soon) Boris method.

It powers up as soon as there is any drop in PPO2 sensed by the always monitoring sensors
[when the unit is off it still polls the sensors in sleep mode, any drop and it turns itself on)

With this method surface breathing or jumping in will be covered,

Good idea Boris.

But as a general question, which are more reliable, pressure or wet switches?

Mark Chase · 19th January 2007, 10:14

[quote=silent running;90984]

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

But you already know this Joe, others may not.

If you're going for the all-inclusive intergrated ECCR thing with no hard on/off power switch, IMHO, as I said above, it's very good to have a wet and/or pressure switch. Most of the complaints about them seem to be that they don't work properly/software is not sophisticated enough. These are minor problems and should be easily solved. And once the bugs are worked out and the unit only turns on/off at the surface by the user, and always turns on underwater without the user, who would complain?

Did you read my complaints

Trust me wet switches that set off buzzers is a very very bad plan. My experiences of wet switches not switching off with various bits of kit have taught me this.

Best wet switch out there is the Suunto which has had the least problems.

The battery usage of the HH combined with the wet switches is also a problem. The hand set clipped off against a wet counter lung can accidentally switch on and drain the battery, Rain switches them on and drains the battery. Sea spray turns them on. Next thing you know you jump in the water and the battery dies killing your primary controller because your "safety device" has killed it.

Recent redesign of the switches and the use of copious amounts of silicone grease to cover the sensor seem to solve the problem. but its another issue. I now have to be vigilant about accidental unit activation during long wet trips out to dive sites rather than vigilant about switching the unit on before a dive.

When its raining or theres lots of spray, every one else is sleeping and I am running backwards and forwards getting soaked checking the hand sets are off

ATB

Mark Chase

silent running · 19th January 2007, 10:27

[quote=Mark Chase;91004]

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Did you read my complaints

Trust me wet switches that set off buzzers is a very very bad plan. My experiences of wet switches not switching off with various bits of kit have taught me this.

Best wet switch out there is the Suunto which has had the least problems.

The battery usage of the HH combined with the wet switches is also a problem. The hand set clipped off against a wet counter lung can accidentally switch on and drain the battery, Rain switches them on and drains the battery. Sea spray turns them on. Next thing you know you jump in the water and the battery dies killing your primary controller because your "safety device" has killed it.

Recent redesign of the switches and the use of copious amounts of silicone grease to cover the sensor seem to solve the problem. but its another issue. I now have to be vigilant about accidental unit activation during long wet trips out to dive sites rather than vigilant about switching the unit on before a dive.

When its raining or theres lots of spray, every one else is sleeping and I am running backwards and forwards getting soaked checking the hand sets are off

ATB

Mark Chase

Hi Mark, yes I read your complaints, they're well known and valid, and I have also complained myself about the hassels of said wet/pressure switches/full auto ECCR designs. But problems or not, the idea is a good one for those more sophisticated ECCRs that make turning the unit on underwater difficult. The bugs are there, no doubt, but it seems mostly to be a software problem-see Mike's new Boris pressure switch protocol mentioned above.

My main point is that if the unit cannot be turned on underwater very quickly, say in less than 2 seconds, it should at least have a wet and or pressure switch. it can't be that hard to make it work.

But of course that's easy for me to say, I can turn my unit on upside down, blindfolded, underwater in 1 second and read my PO2 anytime above or below with no power...

View Poll Results: Should units turn themselve on if you enter water with them off?
Yes & use last save calibration	52	32.50%
No, divers responsibility	64	40.00%
No, but sound buzzer to alert diver (or other alert)	44	27.50%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

19th January 2007, 06:33	#41 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) If you know that if you don't turn it on you will die for sure, then it becomes like the KISS - you know if you don't look you will die for sure. IMHO the best guard against complacency is the knowledge that if you don't do something its not "you might die" - its "you WILL die." My evidence for this is, of course, the KISS. The trouble is the evidence against this is a number of fatalities!!! Does the K1 use an external mechanical power switch? Or does it use "soft" push / finger pad buttons? Will it have an integrated pressure gauge and logic software to maintain set point? I cannot see the conflict between having the unit NOT start trying to work normally under water if finds itself going from atmospheric pressure to say 10ft /2 metres and being programmed to respond ONLY to this level of actual pressure change (not relative) by going mental and yelling audibly and visually at the distracted diver (and perhaps try to maintain a life supporting ppO2 level ...you dont want it to...you close your O2) ...this is option 3... Steve Last edited by UKSteve : 19th January 2007 at 06:35.
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19th January 2007, 06:37	#42 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,555	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) So what does it do? it turns its self OFF during the prebreath because its dry and not under pressure. Maybe you should give a big hug. And some tongue. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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19th January 2007, 07:02	#43 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,113	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve) The trouble is the evidence against this is a number of fatalities!!! Does the K1 use an external mechanical power switch? Or does it use "soft" push / finger pad buttons? Will it have an integrated pressure gauge and logic software to maintain set point? I cannot see the conflict between having the unit NOT start trying to work normally under water if finds itself going from atmospheric pressure to say 10ft /2 metres and being programmed to respond ONLY to this level of actual pressure change (not relative) by going mental and yelling audibly and visually at the distracted diver (and perhaps try to maintain a life supporting ppO2 level ...you dont want it to...you close your O2) ...this is option 3... Steve also the KISS system in itself is not proof.. On an MCCR thats reasonably tuned to your metaboloc needs the displays turned off may not kill you.. its certainly not going to kill you in any short order.. as long as your oxygen is turned on you are getting it added to the loop, pair this with a descent.. it takes much more than a few minutes (unless you were busting your ass) for the loop to go hypoxic.. On an eccr with the electronics off its just takes minutes. so on a KISS style system you have time to realize that you screwed up, on an eCCR you don't __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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19th January 2007, 08:00	#44 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? [quote=jradomski;90978]also the KISS system in itself is not proof.. On an MCCR thats reasonably tuned to your metaboloc needs the displays turned off may not kill you.. its certainly not going to kill you in any short order.. [quote] Yes Joe, unless there's a problem with the mass flow orifice-blocks up or your IP creeps-and you don't remember to look at the displays frequently enough. Not even MCCRs in all their simplicty, are fool proof and have their own choke/failure point-literally. IMHO a decent HUD and good monitoring habits-crosschecking PO2s with your 2dry-are the best security we can get. And this still presumes you have verified your cells to at least 1.6... But you already know this Joe, others may not. If you're going for the all-inclusive intergrated ECCR thing with no hard on/off power switch, IMHO, as I said above, it's very good to have a wet and/or pressure switch. Most of the complaints about them seem to be that they don't work properly/software is not sophisticated enough. These are minor problems and should be easily solved. And once the bugs are worked out and the unit only turns on/off at the surface by the user, and always turns on underwater without the user, who would complain? We always make our best decisions on the surface, not while under pressure.
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19th January 2007, 09:01	#45 (permalink)
dave t RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 662	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? presure switches on thier own are no good, they wont switch the unit on if your on the surface, I think we lost at least a couple breathing a switched off unit on the surface. Wet switches still dont protect against not filling/turning on your o2, replacing scrubber when you should, replacing cells when you should, and more importantly batteries when you should. I remember my dive computers that had wet switches that didnt work if you forgot to clean the salt deposits off them!! or if you didnt dry them completly they would just stay on and flat the battery. maybe wet switches are better designed these days! there was one incident where the soon to be victim was approached underwater by another diver and asked "why is you buzzer going nuts"? the victim shrugged gestured with his hands "I dont know" and just turned and swam off. That was the last time the diver was seen alive!! I guess however many failsafes we have built into a rebreather Darwin will always find a way around them!
(Online)

19th January 2007, 09:02	#46 (permalink)
*Beanie* Gallery Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,311	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie) Now hear is the thing the vision wont allow you to switch all controllers underwater, C1 yes, C2 yes...but not both at the same time. This in my point of veiw is a crap idea. I had to isolate the 02 cylinder whilst doing a OC ascent from 64m which is not to bad, but compared to just holding down a button is a total pain in the arse. Don't you turn controller 1 off then controller 2 off to turn both off? That's how I understand it. back on topic Auto turn could be a good thing but if it becomes relied on it becomes a problem, what if the unit is well out of calibration? My thought would be turn on when wet and scream at you and give you a message to surface and sort it out. __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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19th January 2007, 10:05	#47 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) presure switches on thier own are no good, they wont switch the unit on if your on the surface, Agreed - thats why I like the new (coming soon) Boris method. It powers up as soon as there is any drop in PPO2 sensed by the always monitoring sensors [when the unit is off it still polls the sensors in sleep mode, any drop and it turns itself on) With this method surface breathing or jumping in will be covered, __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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19th January 2007, 10:09	#48 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Agreed - thats why I like the new (coming soon) Boris method. It powers up as soon as there is any drop in PPO2 sensed by the always monitoring sensors [when the unit is off it still polls the sensors in sleep mode, any drop and it turns itself on) With this method surface breathing or jumping in will be covered, Good idea Boris. But as a general question, which are more reliable, pressure or wet switches?
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19th January 2007, 10:14	#49 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,856	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? [quote=silent running;90984] Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) But you already know this Joe, others may not. If you're going for the all-inclusive intergrated ECCR thing with no hard on/off power switch, IMHO, as I said above, it's very good to have a wet and/or pressure switch. Most of the complaints about them seem to be that they don't work properly/software is not sophisticated enough. These are minor problems and should be easily solved. And once the bugs are worked out and the unit only turns on/off at the surface by the user, and always turns on underwater without the user, who would complain? Did you read my complaints Trust me wet switches that set off buzzers is a very very bad plan. My experiences of wet switches not switching off with various bits of kit have taught me this. Best wet switch out there is the Suunto which has had the least problems. The battery usage of the HH combined with the wet switches is also a problem. The hand set clipped off against a wet counter lung can accidentally switch on and drain the battery, Rain switches them on and drains the battery. Sea spray turns them on. Next thing you know you jump in the water and the battery dies killing your primary controller because your "safety device" has killed it. Recent redesign of the switches and the use of copious amounts of silicone grease to cover the sensor seem to solve the problem. but its another issue. I now have to be vigilant about accidental unit activation during long wet trips out to dive sites rather than vigilant about switching the unit on before a dive. When its raining or theres lots of spray, every one else is sleeping and I am running backwards and forwards getting soaked checking the hand sets are off ATB Mark Chase __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
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19th January 2007, 10:27	#50 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,873	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? [quote=Mark Chase;91004] Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Did you read my complaints Trust me wet switches that set off buzzers is a very very bad plan. My experiences of wet switches not switching off with various bits of kit have taught me this. Best wet switch out there is the Suunto which has had the least problems. The battery usage of the HH combined with the wet switches is also a problem. The hand set clipped off against a wet counter lung can accidentally switch on and drain the battery, Rain switches them on and drains the battery. Sea spray turns them on. Next thing you know you jump in the water and the battery dies killing your primary controller because your "safety device" has killed it. Recent redesign of the switches and the use of copious amounts of silicone grease to cover the sensor seem to solve the problem. but its another issue. I now have to be vigilant about accidental unit activation during long wet trips out to dive sites rather than vigilant about switching the unit on before a dive. When its raining or theres lots of spray, every one else is sleeping and I am running backwards and forwards getting soaked checking the hand sets are off ATB Mark Chase Hi Mark, yes I read your complaints, they're well known and valid, and I have also complained myself about the hassels of said wet/pressure switches/full auto ECCR designs. But problems or not, the idea is a good one for those more sophisticated ECCRs that make turning the unit on underwater difficult. The bugs are there, no doubt, but it seems mostly to be a software problem-see Mike's new Boris pressure switch protocol mentioned above. My main point is that if the unit cannot be turned on underwater very quickly, say in less than 2 seconds, it should at least have a wet and or pressure switch. it can't be that hard to make it work. But of course that's easy for me to say, I can turn my unit on upside down, blindfolded, underwater in 1 second and read my PO2 anytime above or below with no power...
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