Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off?

sensor330 · 19th January 2007, 00:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

My unit has both wet switches and a pressure switch to turn it on once you hit the water.

So what does it do? it turns its self OFF during the prebreath because its dry and not under pressure.

It's very frustrating.

Owing to the nature of our diving we are often kitted up and ready to go with 15min or more to wait before we go. Short slack windows and great depth means we have to get all the teems in quickly.

So I will often be prebreathing the unit for 15mins before i stand up and go diving. In the first 5 i will be carefully monitoring cell performance but then I prefer to go all Zen like and visualize the dive and the dive plan.

Quite often when I get the standby call i look down to find the units switched off again

Then there is the problem of not being able to switch the unit off in the water. If the solenoid goes spazo I cant just hit the off button on my hand sets and fly the unit on the back up system. If the units wet and underwater it's on. You have no choice.

Back when i had a classic I remember thinking if i had a solenoid jam on first thing I would do is switch off both hand sets. I had the VR3 plumbed in to check PP02 on my forth cell so i wouldn't be blind and i thought it would be quicker than isolating the 02.

I have wondered about incidents where divers have died and they found the unit switched off. If they got the unit switched off and then turned off the 02at a more leisurely pace if they were to tox at that point would the coroner be able to tell what happened?

Much as i love my HH controllers I have to say I don't see the safety features of a pressure sensor and wet switch as anything more than an irritation and i reeeeeeellllyyy wish it had a hard OF switch on the primary controller.

Leave the passive secondary with a wet switch so the HUD can tell me i am a dick head but give me a way to switch off when things go wrong.

Sadly the fatality reports speak for themselves (Unless my conspiracy theory is correct) so its hard / imposable to get Kevin to change his design.

ATB

Mark Chase

I just set my auto shut off to the max setting as I also found it frustrating.

**Gill Envy** · 19th January 2007, 00:24

Quote:

IMHO it will give the people who cut corners more of a false sense of security of it will be all right this time. And in turn could create more problems than it would fix by people rushing and not following set simple rules.

ATB
Gareth

Quote: (Originally Posted by RichardGreen)

Hey Steve nobody deserved to die in your example, but the point is we are ,I hope serious and responsible divers, who have undergone quite a lot of training to be where we are. So we should at least be able to turn the thing on before we jump.

Richard

Richard and Gareth, In many respects i agree and I personally can not imagine not noticing my unit is not on because of all the pre-dive checks and pre-breathe and the fact that i am adamant about not turning the computer off after a pre-breathe but the thing that makes me think a wet switch would be good even for "serious and responsible divers" is that they are often the ones making the fatal blunders. I don't hear about a lot of newbie corner cutting divers biting it. I hear more often about very experienced divers having an accident on a relatively "easy" dive apparently getting overly relaxed.

I'm even very Leary of putting anyone down for poor performance, i think it's all to often our own attempt at denying the possibility that even, or perhaps especially "us serious divers" are prone to making stupid mistakes.

In actuality, it seem that the stats on fatalities mostly favor the KISS approach, which is not just a matter of leaving out a wet switch.

Depth-junkie · 19th January 2007, 00:29

Quote:

Back when i had a classic I remember thinking if i had a solenoid jam on first thing I would do is switch off both hand sets. I had the VR3 plumbed in to check PP02 on my forth cell so i wouldn't be blind and i thought it would be quicker than isolating the 02.

Good point Mark,

I had my vision inspo have a fit a while back and only do what i can describe as a total system reboot after a software upgrade, During the electronic failure my soliniod was continuely injecting 02 into the loop. my 1st thought was to switch to the handsets off as i had already gone OC by this point!!!

Now hear is the thing the vision wont allow you to switch all controllers underwater, C1 yes, C2 yes...but not both at the same time. This in my point of veiw is a crap idea. I had to isolate the 02 cylinder whilst doing a OC ascent from 64m which is not to bad, but compared to just holding down a button is a total pain in the arse.

Quote:

I have wondered about incidents where divers have died and they found the unit switched off. If they got the unit switched off and then turned off the 02at a more leisurely pace if they were to tox at that point would the coroner be able to tell what happened?

Have AP done this to cover your above quote, or to stop people from accadently turning off the system by mistake????

ATB
Gareth

UKSteve · 19th January 2007, 00:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie)

Now hear is the thing the vision wont allow you to switch all controllers underwater, C1 yes, C2 yes...but not both at the same time. This in my point of veiw is a crap idea. I had to isolate the 02 cylinder whilst doing a OC ascent from 64m which is not to bad, but compared to just holding down a button is a total pain in the arse.

Sounds like the basis of another Poll

I know what my vote would be...

S.

Drmike · 19th January 2007, 02:35

i vote yes

The fact is people have died in the past from jumping in with them switched off - and people will no doubt die in the future for doing the same thing

i dont see any harm in having a safegaurd against that

aknelson · 19th January 2007, 03:26

IMO I would say machine controls must be automated and fool proofed as good as possible.
This because people will screw-up anyway...

I'm not exempt from screw-ups.

I did my share

I own automated dive instrumentation for more than a decade and I like not to miss the peace of mind that the instrument will turn on when I need it working.

Remember it is live support equipment and not just some" dumb toy electronics". Sorry, I have no patiance for halfe working controls. Half working stuff just bugs me in professional and privat live.
And here it seems some of the controls buiders around Rebreather,s just don't get it.

Todays professional industrial electronics for machine control comes standard with suffisticated sensors and self diagnostic. The controls will let the user know what is wrong and what the system status is.
At this point an automated check list just makes sure the user does check his instruments. And it is recorded as an event.

The machine controls I have mentioned above do exist and those controls do have manual modes. Guess how many industrial users run the manual controls only (none).

We can go back to manual controls only, and lots of Rebreather pilots went this way. But then we must not wonder when someone has again an avoidable accident or a close miss.

Because people will screw up anyway....

no matter how much trainig they have

Andreas

Genesis · 19th January 2007, 03:39

I voted NO, and in fact I implemented "NO" in the K1.

Here's why:

I want to be able to shut OFF the unit's electronics if it becomes necessary. If the electronics were to go "insane" then it becomes necessary to be able to turn off the device. If you have "wet switches" then turning off the machine becomes impossible. Shutting off the electronics does not NECESSARILY mean that I must bail (the most obvious example of this is if I am at 20' or less of depth when it happens; I can run as a pure O2 rebreather indefinitely without electronics.)

If you "auto turn on" you may actually precipitate killing someone. Going in the water without a calibration in the reasonably recent past could mean you dive with bad sensors with no knowledge of the fault. Auto-turn-on would encourage this element of complacency. In addition auto-turn-on requires not having a "hard off" capability, which leaves a malfunction that does "bad things" far more difficult to manage than if you DO have an "off switch."

If you know that if you don't turn it on you will die for sure, then it becomes like the KISS - you know if you don't look you will die for sure.

IMHO the best guard against complacency is the knowledge that if you don't do something its not "you might die" - its "you WILL die."

My evidence for this is, of course, the KISS.

I judge the balance of risks to favor no auto-turn-on; YMMV.

Russ · 19th January 2007, 04:41

How about option 3 with an alarm... then tell everyone it only works 50% of the time

The Moustache · 19th January 2007, 05:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve)

Unit wakes up, screams at you in every way possible to get your wayward attention and tells you clearly to BAIL OUT Steve

Yup I'm with you.

Unit wakes up and goes MENTAL at you. Ideally HUD applies painful electric shock to your face.

**Gill Envy** · 19th January 2007, 05:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Russ)

How about option 3 with an alarm... then tell everyone it only works 50% of the time

Nice!

View Poll Results: Should units turn themselve on if you enter water with them off?
Yes & use last save calibration	52	32.50%
No, divers responsibility	64	40.00%
No, but sound buzzer to alert diver (or other alert)	44	27.50%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

19th January 2007, 00:18	#31 (permalink)
sensor330 RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 594	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) My unit has both wet switches and a pressure switch to turn it on once you hit the water. So what does it do? it turns its self OFF during the prebreath because its dry and not under pressure. It's very frustrating. Owing to the nature of our diving we are often kitted up and ready to go with 15min or more to wait before we go. Short slack windows and great depth means we have to get all the teems in quickly. So I will often be prebreathing the unit for 15mins before i stand up and go diving. In the first 5 i will be carefully monitoring cell performance but then I prefer to go all Zen like and visualize the dive and the dive plan. Quite often when I get the standby call i look down to find the units switched off again Then there is the problem of not being able to switch the unit off in the water. If the solenoid goes spazo I cant just hit the off button on my hand sets and fly the unit on the back up system. If the units wet and underwater it's on. You have no choice. Back when i had a classic I remember thinking if i had a solenoid jam on first thing I would do is switch off both hand sets. I had the VR3 plumbed in to check PP02 on my forth cell so i wouldn't be blind and i thought it would be quicker than isolating the 02. I have wondered about incidents where divers have died and they found the unit switched off. If they got the unit switched off and then turned off the 02at a more leisurely pace if they were to tox at that point would the coroner be able to tell what happened? Much as i love my HH controllers I have to say I don't see the safety features of a pressure sensor and wet switch as anything more than an irritation and i reeeeeeellllyyy wish it had a hard OF switch on the primary controller. Leave the passive secondary with a wet switch so the HUD can tell me i am a dick head but give me a way to switch off when things go wrong. Sadly the fatality reports speak for themselves (Unless my conspiracy theory is correct) so its hard / imposable to get Kevin to change his design. ATB Mark Chase I just set my auto shut off to the max setting as I also found it frustrating.
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19th January 2007, 00:24	#32 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,347	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: IMHO it will give the people who cut corners more of a false sense of security of it will be all right this time. And in turn could create more problems than it would fix by people rushing and not following set simple rules. ATB Gareth Quote: (Originally Posted by RichardGreen) Hey Steve nobody deserved to die in your example, but the point is we are ,I hope serious and responsible divers, who have undergone quite a lot of training to be where we are. So we should at least be able to turn the thing on before we jump. Richard Richard and Gareth, In many respects i agree and I personally can not imagine not noticing my unit is not on because of all the pre-dive checks and pre-breathe and the fact that i am adamant about not turning the computer off after a pre-breathe but the thing that makes me think a wet switch would be good even for "serious and responsible divers" is that they are often the ones making the fatal blunders. I don't hear about a lot of newbie corner cutting divers biting it. I hear more often about very experienced divers having an accident on a relatively "easy" dive apparently getting overly relaxed. I'm even very Leary of putting anyone down for poor performance, i think it's all to often our own attempt at denying the possibility that even, or perhaps especially "us serious divers" are prone to making stupid mistakes. In actuality, it seem that the stats on fatalities mostly favor the KISS approach, which is not just a matter of leaving out a wet switch. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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19th January 2007, 00:29	#33 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: Back when i had a classic I remember thinking if i had a solenoid jam on first thing I would do is switch off both hand sets. I had the VR3 plumbed in to check PP02 on my forth cell so i wouldn't be blind and i thought it would be quicker than isolating the 02. Good point Mark, I had my vision inspo have a fit a while back and only do what i can describe as a total system reboot after a software upgrade, During the electronic failure my soliniod was continuely injecting 02 into the loop. my 1st thought was to switch to the handsets off as i had already gone OC by this point!!! Now hear is the thing the vision wont allow you to switch all controllers underwater, C1 yes, C2 yes...but not both at the same time. This in my point of veiw is a crap idea. I had to isolate the 02 cylinder whilst doing a OC ascent from 64m which is not to bad, but compared to just holding down a button is a total pain in the arse. Quote: I have wondered about incidents where divers have died and they found the unit switched off. If they got the unit switched off and then turned off the 02at a more leisurely pace if they were to tox at that point would the coroner be able to tell what happened? Have AP done this to cover your above quote, or to stop people from accadently turning off the system by mistake???? ATB Gareth
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19th January 2007, 00:50	#34 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie) Now hear is the thing the vision wont allow you to switch all controllers underwater, C1 yes, C2 yes...but not both at the same time. This in my point of veiw is a crap idea. I had to isolate the 02 cylinder whilst doing a OC ascent from 64m which is not to bad, but compared to just holding down a button is a total pain in the arse. Sounds like the basis of another Poll I know what my vote would be... S.
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19th January 2007, 02:35	#35 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? i vote yes The fact is people have died in the past from jumping in with them switched off - and people will no doubt die in the future for doing the same thing i dont see any harm in having a safegaurd against that __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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19th January 2007, 03:26	#36 (permalink)
aknelson RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Dolphin Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 85	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? IMO I would say machine controls must be automated and fool proofed as good as possible. This because people will screw-up anyway... I'm not exempt from screw-ups. I did my share I own automated dive instrumentation for more than a decade and I like not to miss the peace of mind that the instrument will turn on when I need it working. Remember it is live support equipment and not just some" dumb toy electronics". Sorry, I have no patiance for halfe working controls. Half working stuff just bugs me in professional and privat live. And here it seems some of the controls buiders around Rebreather,s just don't get it. Todays professional industrial electronics for machine control comes standard with suffisticated sensors and self diagnostic. The controls will let the user know what is wrong and what the system status is. At this point an automated check list just makes sure the user does check his instruments. And it is recorded as an event. The machine controls I have mentioned above do exist and those controls do have manual modes. Guess how many industrial users run the manual controls only (none). We can go back to manual controls only, and lots of Rebreather pilots went this way. But then we must not wonder when someone has again an avoidable accident or a close miss. Because people will screw up anyway.... no matter how much trainig they have Andreas Last edited by aknelson : 19th January 2007 at 03:37.
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19th January 2007, 03:39	#37 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,453	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? I voted NO, and in fact I implemented "NO" in the K1. Here's why: I want to be able to shut OFF the unit's electronics if it becomes necessary. If the electronics were to go "insane" then it becomes necessary to be able to turn off the device. If you have "wet switches" then turning off the machine becomes impossible. Shutting off the electronics does not NECESSARILY mean that I must bail (the most obvious example of this is if I am at 20' or less of depth when it happens; I can run as a pure O2 rebreather indefinitely without electronics.) If you "auto turn on" you may actually precipitate killing someone. Going in the water without a calibration in the reasonably recent past could mean you dive with bad sensors with no knowledge of the fault. Auto-turn-on would encourage this element of complacency. In addition auto-turn-on requires not having a "hard off" capability, which leaves a malfunction that does "bad things" far more difficult to manage than if you DO have an "off switch." If you know that if you don't turn it on you will die for sure, then it becomes like the KISS - you know if you don't look you will die for sure. IMHO the best guard against complacency is the knowledge that if you don't do something its not "you might die" - its "you WILL die." My evidence for this is, of course, the KISS. I judge the balance of risks to favor no auto-turn-on; YMMV. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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19th January 2007, 04:41	#38 (permalink)
Russ New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 88	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? How about option 3 with an alarm... then tell everyone it only works 50% of the time
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19th January 2007, 05:17	#39 (permalink)
The Moustache New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Oz Cricket Academy Posts: 8	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve) Unit wakes up, screams at you in every way possible to get your wayward attention and tells you clearly to BAIL OUT Steve Yup I'm with you. Unit wakes up and goes MENTAL at you. Ideally HUD applies painful electric shock to your face. __________________ Cricket is only a middle-class game in England. Everywhere else in the world it's played by the working classes. Which is why Australia always (usually) beats you. People like Jason Gillespie, Glenn McGrath, Adam Gilchrist and Shane Warne are what we would call bogans and you English might call "Chavs". If they lived in England they would likely have grown up to become football hooligans instead of cricketers.
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19th January 2007, 05:25	#40 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,347	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Russ) How about option 3 with an alarm... then tell everyone it only works 50% of the time Nice! __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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