Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off?

Depth-junkie · 18th January 2007, 21:11

Quote:

Years ago I had to investigate a fatality on a drilling rig. A poor sod had got too close to the rotating part of the drillfloor while washing down the area with a hose. Somehow he stepped on the rotating floor, got entangled in the machinery and before the Driller could stop it, was swung around by the leg. His head then got smashed to pulp when it hit a nearby bit of pipework.

At the ensuing enquiry I proposed the implementation of some pretty simple (and existing) equipment that covered the rotating part of the floor - preventing the same accident occurring again in the future. Why was it not commonplace at the time of the accident? Sadly, the inertia to change from the "its always been this way" boys. The cost? About $5k per rig.

One dick head at the presentation (who was resisting the expenditure) was heard to comment that "if he was dum enough to get that close to the rotary table then he deserved to get hurt".

Sorry...but that is not my approach to accident investigation and prevention... is it really yours?

We are not talking about industrial equipment here, we are talking about having the nonce to turn something electrical on before using it, not industrial drills etc etc.

IMHO it will give the people who cut corners more of a false sense of security of it will be all right this time. And in turn could create more problems than it would fix by people rushing and not following set simple rules.

ATB
Gareth

UKSteve · 18th January 2007, 21:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie)

IMHO it will give the people who cut corners more of a false sense of security of it will be all right this time. And in turn could create more problems than it would fix by people rushing and not following set simple rules.

ATB
Gareth

What? The third option?

Steve

RichardGreen · 18th January 2007, 21:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie)

it's a NO for me, IMHO it will give people more of a false sence of security for them if they cut corners....."Ah it will be alright this time if i miss a pre-breath and rush to get in the water, the unit will turn it's self on"

Dont be a dip shit, turn it on, calibrate it, pre-breath it and then go diving. It's not hard!!!!

If your that much of a knob that you can forget to follow a few simple rules I.E if you want to use an electrical item you have to turn something on to be able to use it, let me ask a question....Do any of you sit down on the sofa in front of the T.V all ready to watch the footy staring at a blank screen for a few min's before you realise that you forgot to switch it on??? I doubt it!!!! if you want to watch the footy you turn the T.V on, pretty simple stuff

There are enough dick heads out there as it is, dont give em more excuses to cut corners

ATB
Gareth

What he said, and furthermore I for one don't want to be nannied, If I jump with the unit not turned on and I die tough shit, should have kown better and taken up stamp collecting or stayed in bed.

Richard Green

RichardGreen · 18th January 2007, 21:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

No, I am sorry but it is called "common freaking sense".

I have been plenty of times on the rig floor in my 20-year experience, and when the kelly is rotating at 100+ RPM, I don't get near it...

We could invent all sort of fool-proof devices, and the world will present you with plenty of better and smarter fools!

If someone doesn't pay attention to what he is breathing despite of what he was trained to do from the first day diving the rig, he will kill himself another way.

There isn't and won't be a perfect system that will prevent someone from ignoring their training, complacency kills. Building what supposedly a more elaborate system will increase the level of complacency to depend on the system to save one's ass.

There is no prevention system on the KISS. And every KISS owner realizes that. No KISS fatality (yet) from complacency of dependency on the system to keep the diver alive.

And what he said as well

Depth-junkie · 18th January 2007, 21:27

Quote:

What he said, and furthermore I for one don't want to be nannied, If I jump with the unit not turned on and I die tough shit, should have kown better and taken up stamp collecting or stayed in bed.

Richard Green

LOL

was just about to say something very similar.

The more idiot proof you make things, the more daft/unbeliveable ways idiots will find to screw up.

Does a pilot just get in a plane and push the throttle up to full power and take off?? Or does he/she check that the controls/engines etc are working properly 1st??

If he did just take off and end up crashing i think i can imagine what the inquest would say.....DICK HEAD and should not have been in control of a plane in the 1st place.

ATB
Gareth

UKSteve · 18th January 2007, 21:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

No, I am sorry but it is called "common freaking sense".

I have been plenty of times on the rig floor in my 20-year experience, and when the kelly is rotating at 100+ RPM, I don't get near it...

We could invent all sort of fool-proof devices, and the world will present you with plenty of better and smarter fools!

Ah...so he DID deserve to die then... my mistake...

Im sorry... clearly a difference of opinion on the concept of accident prevention vs "nannyism"

Steve

decoweenie · 18th January 2007, 21:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve)

Ah...so he DID derserve to die then... my mistake...

OK, I will stay true with my New Year resolution and bow out of this discussion.

RichardGreen · 18th January 2007, 21:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve)

Ah...so he DID deserve to die then... my mistake...

Im sorry... clearly a difference of opinion on the concept of accident prevention vs "nannyism"

Steve

Hey Steve nobody deserved to die in your example, but the point is we are ,I hope serious and responsible divers, who have undergone quite a lot of training to be where we are. So we should at least be able to turn the thing on before we jump.

Richard

Depth-junkie · 18th January 2007, 21:48

Quote:

Ah...so he DID deserve to die then... my mistake...

Im sorry... clearly a difference of opinion on the concept of accident prevention vs "nannyism"

Steve

Of course he did not deserve to die, it was an industrial accident. Accidents happen in all walks of life, wrong place at the wrong time etc etc it's a fact of life. But this is not we are talking about here.

Surley common sense dictates, its a shame more people dont posses it. Take responsibilty for your own actions, dont expect others to do it for you if you cant be arsed. If i jumped in with my electronics switched off i have no else to blame but myself for my own stupidity. This is life critical shit here, so give it the time it deserves and do it properly.

ATB
Gareth

***caveseeker7*** · 18th January 2007, 21:50

I voted "No" as I believe that both systems I'm trained to dive, the PRISM and the Sport Kiss, don't have that feature and for good reason. The 3rd unit I would like to dive, the MK15.5, has electronics similar to the PRISM's (or rather the opposite).

The Sport Kiss has minimal electronics, thus IMHO minimal problems, and every user knows he has to control the setpoint as nothing else will.

The MK/PRISM electronics allow for the power source to be physically separated from the sensors, thus preventing stray power from feeding back to the pO2 monitor. In combination with the analog gauges (whatever drawbacks the do have) it allows the units to be safely operated in case of a complete power failure. That, IMHO, is more important than trying to make the unit complacency proof. Which, no matter what the design, is impossible.

Anyone enough of a numpty to skip all pre-dive and in-water checks is probably enough of a numpty to forget to install/change/check the batteries that are required to power any electronics in the first place.

But I do agree that, unfortunately, there are plenty of people who could need, or could have needed, such a feature. Then again, they do have the option to dive OC, pSCR or just stay out of the water.

View Poll Results: Should units turn themselve on if you enter water with them off?
Yes & use last save calibration	52	32.50%
No, divers responsibility	64	40.00%
No, but sound buzzer to alert diver (or other alert)	44	27.50%
Voters: 160. You may not vote on this poll

18th January 2007, 21:11	#11 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: Years ago I had to investigate a fatality on a drilling rig. A poor sod had got too close to the rotating part of the drillfloor while washing down the area with a hose. Somehow he stepped on the rotating floor, got entangled in the machinery and before the Driller could stop it, was swung around by the leg. His head then got smashed to pulp when it hit a nearby bit of pipework. At the ensuing enquiry I proposed the implementation of some pretty simple (and existing) equipment that covered the rotating part of the floor - preventing the same accident occurring again in the future. Why was it not commonplace at the time of the accident? Sadly, the inertia to change from the "its always been this way" boys. The cost? About $5k per rig. One dick head at the presentation (who was resisting the expenditure) was heard to comment that "if he was dum enough to get that close to the rotary table then he deserved to get hurt". Sorry...but that is not my approach to accident investigation and prevention... is it really yours? We are not talking about industrial equipment here, we are talking about having the nonce to turn something electrical on before using it, not industrial drills etc etc. IMHO it will give the people who cut corners more of a false sense of security of it will be all right this time. And in turn could create more problems than it would fix by people rushing and not following set simple rules. ATB Gareth
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18th January 2007, 21:14	#12 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie) IMHO it will give the people who cut corners more of a false sense of security of it will be all right this time. And in turn could create more problems than it would fix by people rushing and not following set simple rules. ATB Gareth What? The third option? Steve
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18th January 2007, 21:16	#13 (permalink)
RichardGreen Internet Dive Guru Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: UK Posts: 140	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie) it's a NO for me, IMHO it will give people more of a false sence of security for them if they cut corners....."Ah it will be alright this time if i miss a pre-breath and rush to get in the water, the unit will turn it's self on" Dont be a dip shit, turn it on, calibrate it, pre-breath it and then go diving. It's not hard!!!! If your that much of a knob that you can forget to follow a few simple rules I.E if you want to use an electrical item you have to turn something on to be able to use it, let me ask a question....Do any of you sit down on the sofa in front of the T.V all ready to watch the footy staring at a blank screen for a few min's before you realise that you forgot to switch it on??? I doubt it!!!! if you want to watch the footy you turn the T.V on, pretty simple stuff There are enough dick heads out there as it is, dont give em more excuses to cut corners ATB Gareth What he said, and furthermore I for one don't want to be nannied, If I jump with the unit not turned on and I die tough shit, should have kown better and taken up stamp collecting or stayed in bed. Richard Green
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18th January 2007, 21:17	#14 (permalink)
RichardGreen Internet Dive Guru Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: UK Posts: 140	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) No, I am sorry but it is called "common freaking sense". I have been plenty of times on the rig floor in my 20-year experience, and when the kelly is rotating at 100+ RPM, I don't get near it... We could invent all sort of fool-proof devices, and the world will present you with plenty of better and smarter fools! If someone doesn't pay attention to what he is breathing despite of what he was trained to do from the first day diving the rig, he will kill himself another way. There isn't and won't be a perfect system that will prevent someone from ignoring their training, complacency kills. Building what supposedly a more elaborate system will increase the level of complacency to depend on the system to save one's ass. There is no prevention system on the KISS. And every KISS owner realizes that. No KISS fatality (yet) from complacency of dependency on the system to keep the diver alive. And what he said as well
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18th January 2007, 21:27	#15 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: What he said, and furthermore I for one don't want to be nannied, If I jump with the unit not turned on and I die tough shit, should have kown better and taken up stamp collecting or stayed in bed. Richard Green LOL was just about to say something very similar. The more idiot proof you make things, the more daft/unbeliveable ways idiots will find to screw up. Does a pilot just get in a plane and push the throttle up to full power and take off?? Or does he/she check that the controls/engines etc are working properly 1st?? If he did just take off and end up crashing i think i can imagine what the inquest would say.....DICK HEAD and should not have been in control of a plane in the 1st place. ATB Gareth Last edited by Depth-junkie : 18th January 2007 at 21:31.
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18th January 2007, 21:29	#16 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 601	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) No, I am sorry but it is called "common freaking sense". I have been plenty of times on the rig floor in my 20-year experience, and when the kelly is rotating at 100+ RPM, I don't get near it... We could invent all sort of fool-proof devices, and the world will present you with plenty of better and smarter fools! Ah...so he DID deserve to die then... my mistake... Im sorry... clearly a difference of opinion on the concept of accident prevention vs "nannyism" Steve Last edited by UKSteve : 18th January 2007 at 21:34.
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18th January 2007, 21:35	#17 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve) Ah...so he DID derserve to die then... my mistake... OK, I will stay true with my New Year resolution and bow out of this discussion. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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18th January 2007, 21:45	#18 (permalink)
RichardGreen Internet Dive Guru Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: UK Posts: 140	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: (Originally Posted by UKSteve) Ah...so he DID deserve to die then... my mistake... Im sorry... clearly a difference of opinion on the concept of accident prevention vs "nannyism" Steve Hey Steve nobody deserved to die in your example, but the point is we are ,I hope serious and responsible divers, who have undergone quite a lot of training to be where we are. So we should at least be able to turn the thing on before we jump. Richard Last edited by RichardGreen : 18th January 2007 at 21:49. Reason: rubbish spelling
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18th January 2007, 21:48	#19 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? Quote: Ah...so he DID deserve to die then... my mistake... Im sorry... clearly a difference of opinion on the concept of accident prevention vs "nannyism" Steve Of course he did not deserve to die, it was an industrial accident. Accidents happen in all walks of life, wrong place at the wrong time etc etc it's a fact of life. But this is not we are talking about here. Surley common sense dictates, its a shame more people dont posses it. Take responsibilty for your own actions, dont expect others to do it for you if you cant be arsed. If i jumped in with my electronics switched off i have no else to blame but myself for my own stupidity. This is life critical shit here, so give it the time it deserves and do it properly. ATB Gareth Last edited by Depth-junkie : 18th January 2007 at 21:53.
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18th January 2007, 21:50	#20 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,555	Re: Should RBs turn on automatically if you enter water with electonics off? I voted "No" as I believe that both systems I'm trained to dive, the PRISM and the Sport Kiss, don't have that feature and for good reason. The 3rd unit I would like to dive, the MK15.5, has electronics similar to the PRISM's (or rather the opposite). The Sport Kiss has minimal electronics, thus IMHO minimal problems, and every user knows he has to control the setpoint as nothing else will. The MK/PRISM electronics allow for the power source to be physically separated from the sensors, thus preventing stray power from feeding back to the pO2 monitor. In combination with the analog gauges (whatever drawbacks the do have) it allows the units to be safely operated in case of a complete power failure. That, IMHO, is more important than trying to make the unit complacency proof. Which, no matter what the design, is impossible. Anyone enough of a numpty to skip all pre-dive and in-water checks is probably enough of a numpty to forget to install/change/check the batteries that are required to power any electronics in the first place. But I do agree that, unfortunately, there are plenty of people who could need, or could have needed, such a feature. Then again, they do have the option to dive OC, pSCR or just stay out of the water. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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