HammerHead Revisions and Issues

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 2nd October 2006, 21:46

DeOxit Gold to clean, and then conductive grease after.

Mark Chase · 2nd October 2006, 22:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy_C)

Hi

Very soon when I've put the touches to my rebuilt Inspiration with Hammerhead electronics & Kiss valve, I'm going to start diving a Hammerhead.

Have bought a dozen of those recommended Saft LS14500 cells & wana keep the electronics as good as I can. I'm based in the UK. Can anyone recommend Brand names of the magic sprays & potions you guys are using to keep contacts clean & ensure good connections ?

Thanks

Andy

Biox.

Warm it up in a microwave first.

ATB

Mark Chase

c5vette13 · 19th November 2006, 20:00

On the optima, I have experienced rebooting with the primary many times. It only does it underwater. I have tried every possible way to adjust the po2 (run up manually, etc) to avoid the solenoid firing on restart, but nothing works. The battery is fine on the primary and secondary, I verify voltage using a multimeter both before and after the dive, I am using the 3.6V saft batteries as recommended by dive rite. Any ideas why the primary keeps doing this, there should be no reason for this with good battery power...am I correct?

AD_ward9 · 19th November 2006, 20:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by c5vette13)

On the optima, I have experienced rebooting with the primary many times. It only does it underwater. I have tried every possible way to adjust the po2 (run up manually, etc) to avoid the solenoid firing on restart, but nothing works. The battery is fine on the primary and secondary, I verify voltage using a multimeter both before and after the dive, I am using the 3.6V saft batteries as recommended by dive rite. Any ideas why the primary keeps doing this, there should be no reason for this with good battery power...am I correct?

Probably contacts, though could be one of several circuit faults.

IMHO, no rebreather controller should use replaceable batteries. They all seem to suffer contact problems to a greater or lesser extent. Cleaning the contacts and trying to make the springs stronger might help you, or better still, get batteries with solder tags and solder them in every time.

Alex

Mark Chase · 19th November 2006, 21:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by c5vette13)

On the optima, I have experienced rebooting with the primary many times. It only does it underwater. I have tried every possible way to adjust the po2 (run up manually, etc) to avoid the solenoid firing on restart, but nothing works. The battery is fine on the primary and secondary, I verify voltage using a multimeter both before and after the dive, I am using the 3.6V saft batteries as recommended by dive rite. Any ideas why the primary keeps doing this, there should be no reason for this with good battery power...am I correct?

Have you tried burring the threads so they bite into the casing? Also conductive grease. Take the spring out and clean it. Clean the inside of the battery cap. Put grease around the base of the spring and reinsert into the cap.

Burr the threads on the cap or put flats on them by supporting the inside and using a hammer and dowel to flat spot the threads.

Finally I clean the contacts on the batteries before use and i use a smear of silver grease on each end.

So far so good.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mark Chase · 19th November 2006, 21:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Probably contacts, though could be one of several circuit faults.

or better still, get batteries with solder tags and solder them in every time.

Alex

This is not possible on the HH and seeing as the batteries only last a few hours it would be mad to constantly re solder batteries in place.

BTB, total number of battery contact issues on my classic? 0

ATB

Mark Chase

Genesis · 19th November 2006, 21:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Probably contacts, though could be one of several circuit faults.

IMHO, no rebreather controller should use replaceable batteries. They all seem to suffer contact problems to a greater or lesser extent. Cleaning the contacts and trying to make the springs stronger might help you, or better still, get batteries with solder tags and solder them in every time.

Alex

This is PROBABLY a matter of oxidation on the threads of the battery receptacle.

This is one of the major issues with using aluminum for any part of a conductive circuit, especially if that circuit has to be "made" and "unmade" repeatedly, as is the case with a battery cap.

The problem is inherent in the material and no amount of diddling ever really fixes it, although there are ways to try to mitigate the issue. Basically, aluminum protects itself from corrosion by forming a very thin layer of aluminum oxide on its surface. Aluminum oxide is a really good electrical INSULATOR.

This, by the way, is why they stopped using aluminum for inside wiring in homes. It would develop this oxide layer at the junction between the wire and receptacles and over time end up starting fires! Aluminum is still used for entrance cable (from the pole or box to your meter) but there the religious use of anti-oxidizing pastes can be more easily enforced and those connections are rarely disturbed, since the only people generally in there are electricians and power-company workers.

When you have a battery cap that serves as one of the contacts and is screwed into an aluminum chassis to make the connection, you are asking for trouble, because the threads on the aluminum will develop that oxide coating in minutes after exposure to oxygen (the air). What has been reported here is that "mashing" the threads slightly on the cap seems to work - that's because doing so causes them to "bite" into the softer aluninum of the case and thus penetrate the oxide, making a good connection.

Poor connections like this show up during times of heavy current demand, which of course is most evident on a Rebreather when the solenoid fires. If the current demand cannot be met then the voltage rail sags and the controller will reset. On the hammerhead this is a particularly nasty scenario because during powerup tests the solenoid is fired intentionally, which can cause either a cascade of resets which you can't interrupt, a nasty PO2 spike in the loop - or both.

Mark Chase · 19th November 2006, 21:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

This is PROBABLY a matter of oxidation on the threads of the battery receptacle.

This is one of the major issues with using aluminum for any part of a conductive circuit, especially if that circuit has to be "made" and "unmade" repeatedly, as is the case with a battery cap.

The problem is inherent in the material and no amount of diddling ever really fixes it, although there are ways to try to mitigate the issue. Basically, aluminum protects itself from corrosion by forming a very thin layer of aluminum oxide on its surface. Aluminum oxide is a really good electrical INSULATOR.

This, by the way, is why they stopped using aluminum for inside wiring in homes. It would develop this oxide layer at the junction between the wire and receptacles and over time end up starting fires! Aluminum is still used for entrance cable (from the pole or box to your meter) but there the religious use of anti-oxidizing pastes can be more easily enforced and those connections are rarely disturbed, since the only people generally in there are electricians and power-company workers.

When you have a battery cap that serves as one of the contacts and is screwed into an aluminum chassis to make the connection, you are asking for trouble, because the threads on the aluminum will develop that oxide coating in minutes after exposure to oxygen (the air). What has been reported here is that "mashing" the threads slightly on the cap seems to work - that's because doing so causes them to "bite" into the softer aluninum of the case and thus penetrate the oxide, making a good connection.

Poor connections like this show up during times of heavy current demand, which of course is most evident on a Rebreather when the solenoid fires. If the current demand cannot be met then the voltage rail sags and the controller will reset. On the hammerhead this is a particularly nasty scenario because during powerup tests the solenoid is fired intentionally, which can cause either a cascade of resets which you can't interrupt, a nasty PO2 spike in the loop - or both.

Sounds spot on to me and explains why the secondary never has the problem. It doesnet fire the solinoid.

WOuld it be worth sorceing some antioxident?

Is there a pre cleaner we can use on the threads before a dive?

ATB

Mark Chase

Genesis · 19th November 2006, 22:02

Antioxidant will help but making sure the threads are an interference fit is probably the best bet. Unfortunately that's likely to dig up the handset's threads over time (as aluminum is software than SS, which is what the cap is made of if what I've heard reported here is correct.) However, "over time" might be longer than the effective service life of the handset, in which case you don't care!

**JPJones** · 19th November 2006, 22:16

I clean mine with CRC QD Contact Cleaner and a Q-tip. I change batteries every couple of weeks and clean the threads then. I have never had a problem with the new cases so it does work. If you keep the oxidation off the aluminum threads and tighten the cap securley you won't have problems.

2nd October 2006, 21:46	#81 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues DeOxit Gold to clean, and then conductive grease after. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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2nd October 2006, 22:43	#82 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy_C) Hi Very soon when I've put the touches to my rebuilt Inspiration with Hammerhead electronics & Kiss valve, I'm going to start diving a Hammerhead. Have bought a dozen of those recommended Saft LS14500 cells & wana keep the electronics as good as I can. I'm based in the UK. Can anyone recommend Brand names of the magic sprays & potions you guys are using to keep contacts clean & ensure good connections ? Thanks Andy Biox. Warm it up in a microwave first. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

19th November 2006, 20:00	#83 (permalink)
c5vette13 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Weeki Wachee, Fl. Posts: 26	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues On the optima, I have experienced rebooting with the primary many times. It only does it underwater. I have tried every possible way to adjust the po2 (run up manually, etc) to avoid the solenoid firing on restart, but nothing works. The battery is fine on the primary and secondary, I verify voltage using a multimeter both before and after the dive, I am using the 3.6V saft batteries as recommended by dive rite. Any ideas why the primary keeps doing this, there should be no reason for this with good battery power...am I correct?
(Offline)

19th November 2006, 20:28	#84 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by c5vette13) On the optima, I have experienced rebooting with the primary many times. It only does it underwater. I have tried every possible way to adjust the po2 (run up manually, etc) to avoid the solenoid firing on restart, but nothing works. The battery is fine on the primary and secondary, I verify voltage using a multimeter both before and after the dive, I am using the 3.6V saft batteries as recommended by dive rite. Any ideas why the primary keeps doing this, there should be no reason for this with good battery power...am I correct? Probably contacts, though could be one of several circuit faults. IMHO, no rebreather controller should use replaceable batteries. They all seem to suffer contact problems to a greater or lesser extent. Cleaning the contacts and trying to make the springs stronger might help you, or better still, get batteries with solder tags and solder them in every time. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 19th November 2006 at 20:41.
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19th November 2006, 21:28	#85 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by c5vette13) On the optima, I have experienced rebooting with the primary many times. It only does it underwater. I have tried every possible way to adjust the po2 (run up manually, etc) to avoid the solenoid firing on restart, but nothing works. The battery is fine on the primary and secondary, I verify voltage using a multimeter both before and after the dive, I am using the 3.6V saft batteries as recommended by dive rite. Any ideas why the primary keeps doing this, there should be no reason for this with good battery power...am I correct? Have you tried burring the threads so they bite into the casing? Also conductive grease. Take the spring out and clean it. Clean the inside of the battery cap. Put grease around the base of the spring and reinsert into the cap. Burr the threads on the cap or put flats on them by supporting the inside and using a hammer and dowel to flat spot the threads. Finally I clean the contacts on the batteries before use and i use a smear of silver grease on each end. So far so good. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

19th November 2006, 21:30	#86 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Probably contacts, though could be one of several circuit faults. or better still, get batteries with solder tags and solder them in every time. Alex This is not possible on the HH and seeing as the batteries only last a few hours it would be mad to constantly re solder batteries in place. BTB, total number of battery contact issues on my classic? 0 ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

19th November 2006, 21:35	#87 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,395	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Probably contacts, though could be one of several circuit faults. IMHO, no rebreather controller should use replaceable batteries. They all seem to suffer contact problems to a greater or lesser extent. Cleaning the contacts and trying to make the springs stronger might help you, or better still, get batteries with solder tags and solder them in every time. Alex This is PROBABLY a matter of oxidation on the threads of the battery receptacle. This is one of the major issues with using aluminum for any part of a conductive circuit, especially if that circuit has to be "made" and "unmade" repeatedly, as is the case with a battery cap. The problem is inherent in the material and no amount of diddling ever really fixes it, although there are ways to try to mitigate the issue. Basically, aluminum protects itself from corrosion by forming a very thin layer of aluminum oxide on its surface. Aluminum oxide is a really good electrical INSULATOR. This, by the way, is why they stopped using aluminum for inside wiring in homes. It would develop this oxide layer at the junction between the wire and receptacles and over time end up starting fires! Aluminum is still used for entrance cable (from the pole or box to your meter) but there the religious use of anti-oxidizing pastes can be more easily enforced and those connections are rarely disturbed, since the only people generally in there are electricians and power-company workers. When you have a battery cap that serves as one of the contacts and is screwed into an aluminum chassis to make the connection, you are asking for trouble, because the threads on the aluminum will develop that oxide coating in minutes after exposure to oxygen (the air). What has been reported here is that "mashing" the threads slightly on the cap seems to work - that's because doing so causes them to "bite" into the softer aluninum of the case and thus penetrate the oxide, making a good connection. Poor connections like this show up during times of heavy current demand, which of course is most evident on a Rebreather when the solenoid fires. If the current demand cannot be met then the voltage rail sags and the controller will reset. On the hammerhead this is a particularly nasty scenario because during powerup tests the solenoid is fired intentionally, which can cause either a cascade of resets which you can't interrupt, a nasty PO2 spike in the loop - or both. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Offline)

19th November 2006, 21:41	#88 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) This is PROBABLY a matter of oxidation on the threads of the battery receptacle. This is one of the major issues with using aluminum for any part of a conductive circuit, especially if that circuit has to be "made" and "unmade" repeatedly, as is the case with a battery cap. The problem is inherent in the material and no amount of diddling ever really fixes it, although there are ways to try to mitigate the issue. Basically, aluminum protects itself from corrosion by forming a very thin layer of aluminum oxide on its surface. Aluminum oxide is a really good electrical INSULATOR. This, by the way, is why they stopped using aluminum for inside wiring in homes. It would develop this oxide layer at the junction between the wire and receptacles and over time end up starting fires! Aluminum is still used for entrance cable (from the pole or box to your meter) but there the religious use of anti-oxidizing pastes can be more easily enforced and those connections are rarely disturbed, since the only people generally in there are electricians and power-company workers. When you have a battery cap that serves as one of the contacts and is screwed into an aluminum chassis to make the connection, you are asking for trouble, because the threads on the aluminum will develop that oxide coating in minutes after exposure to oxygen (the air). What has been reported here is that "mashing" the threads slightly on the cap seems to work - that's because doing so causes them to "bite" into the softer aluninum of the case and thus penetrate the oxide, making a good connection. Poor connections like this show up during times of heavy current demand, which of course is most evident on a Rebreather when the solenoid fires. If the current demand cannot be met then the voltage rail sags and the controller will reset. On the hammerhead this is a particularly nasty scenario because during powerup tests the solenoid is fired intentionally, which can cause either a cascade of resets which you can't interrupt, a nasty PO2 spike in the loop - or both. Sounds spot on to me and explains why the secondary never has the problem. It doesnet fire the solinoid. WOuld it be worth sorceing some antioxident? Is there a pre cleaner we can use on the threads before a dive? ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

19th November 2006, 22:02	#89 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,395	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Antioxidant will help but making sure the threads are an interference fit is probably the best bet. Unfortunately that's likely to dig up the handset's threads over time (as aluminum is software than SS, which is what the cap is made of if what I've heard reported here is correct.) However, "over time" might be longer than the effective service life of the handset, in which case you don't care! __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Offline)

19th November 2006, 22:16	#90 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues I clean mine with CRC QD Contact Cleaner and a Q-tip. I change batteries every couple of weeks and clean the threads then. I have never had a problem with the new cases so it does work. If you keep the oxidation off the aluminum threads and tighten the cap securley you won't have problems. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
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