HammerHead Revisions and Issues

Mark Chase · 5th May 2008, 22:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Shaunzxr)

Did a 75m dive today.
Delrin computers
40mins into dive, on the ascent HUD flashed red at me and I noticed primary was dead.

Ran the unit manually and after 5 mins the primary came back on. It reset itself and displayed no stop.

The batteries were new and worked fine after the problem.
There was no sign of corrosion when I opened the unit.

I feel this is a serious problem and wondered if anyone else had this on the delrin handsets

Its exactly what used to happen on the old nickle and the later Anodized hand sets.

There will no doubt be a load of guff following about batteries and voltage load drain blah blah, but I fixed my one with a new mother board. Using the same battery that had failed before it worked just fine.

ATB

Mark

PCDiver · 5th May 2008, 23:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Its exactly what used to happen on the old nickle and the later Anodized hand sets.

There will no doubt be a load of guff following about batteries and voltage load drain blah blah, but I fixed my one with a new mother board. Using the same battery that had failed before it worked just fine.

ATB

Mark

I really expected these problems to be of the past. Perhaps it's time to seriously investigate the use of external battery packs as standard via a fischer or wet connector. Kevin already mentioned two or three posts back that it can be done rather easily.

An external rechargeable battery pack like the one we use for umbilical torches with plenty of capacity and the small internal batteries as backup.

IMO that would solve these ongoing battery problems with the HH.

louisrankin · 6th May 2008, 10:23

Since your HUD flashed red I take it your PPO2 had dropped, at least you know the secondary is doing it's job!

***jradomski*** · 6th May 2008, 11:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Shaunzxr)

Did a 75m dive today.
Delrin computers
40mins into dive, on the ascent HUD flashed red at me and I noticed primary was dead.

Ran the unit manually and after 5 mins the primary came back on. It reset itself and displayed no stop.

The batteries were new and worked fine after the problem.
There was no sign of corrosion when I opened the unit.

I feel this is a serious problem and wondered if anyone else had this on the delrin handsets

When you say the batteries were fine.. what was the voltage before the dive?? was the air alot warmer than the water??

You say it came back after 5 minutes.. did you ascend to warmer water??
after it came back on what was the voltage reading??

Has this happened only once??

These are questions to ask to help determine if its a handset problem or just a crap cell.. my personal recommendation is that if the voltage is less than 1.5v for an alkaline (when idle) on the surface change the cell.... I have seen way to many 1.5v batteries come out of the box at 1.4v and less...

With the ss cap and spring Its unlikely that you will see corrosion, also with the large surface area on the cap/spring contact issues are not that likely.. but some oxidation on the contact at the bottom of the battery compartment is possible and since its a AA cell there is a relatively small contact area.. and if the battery has any oxidation its possible that a "dead" spot can form... Use a pencil eraser on the positive contact in the compartment.. Pressure will warp the case slightly then release its deformation, so a contact issue is possible...

Personally I would like to see a spring loaded contact at the bottom as well.. to help isolate changes in the the case from the battery..

anytime a user replacable primary cell is used, the fact that its not a soldered contact means that contacts have to be checked regularly for oxidation..

On every dive computer that I own that has replaceble batteries I always use a bit of conductive lubricant on both the positive and negative terminals to reduce the change of a contact issue.. Don't use too much or it will create its own problems...

Before I started using it on my vr3, I had alot of intermittent lock ups.. on my explorer it stopped the occasional computer reset.. On both the explorer and vr3 I always had the lockup or reset upon accent.. usually somewhere around 50% of maximum depth...

with the limited info so far I would look at the positive terminal...

Shaunzxr · 6th May 2008, 16:14

The batteries were duracell brand new reading 1.59 at start of dive
They read 1.4 during the dive. I think they were 1.3 at the end of the dive
The 5 minutes was on 15-12m stop, so no temp change. The temp was about 8 degree's
I didn't notice the voltage reading when the primary came back on.
This is the first time it has happened
It was an inland dive site so no salt.

I have tried my best to find conductive lubricant in the UK.
If anybody can point me in the right direction that would be great.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

When you say the batteries were fine.. what was the voltage before the dive?? was the air alot warmer than the water??

You say it came back after 5 minutes.. did you ascend to warmer water??
after it came back on what was the voltage reading??

Has this happened only once??

These are questions to ask to help determine if its a handset problem or just a crap cell.. my personal recommendation is that if the voltage is less than 1.5v for an alkaline (when idle) on the surface change the cell.... I have seen way to many 1.5v batteries come out of the box at 1.4v and less...

With the ss cap and spring Its unlikely that you will see corrosion, also with the large surface area on the cap/spring contact issues are not that likely.. but some oxidation on the contact at the bottom of the battery compartment is possible and since its a AA cell there is a relatively small contact area.. and if the battery has any oxidation its possible that a "dead" spot can form... Use a pencil eraser on the positive contact in the compartment.. Pressure will warp the case slightly then release its deformation, so a contact issue is possible...

Personally I would like to see a spring loaded contact at the bottom as well.. to help isolate changes in the the case from the battery..

anytime a user replacable primary cell is used, the fact that its not a soldered contact means that contacts have to be checked regularly for oxidation..

On every dive computer that I own that has replaceble batteries I always use a bit of conductive lubricant on both the positive and negative terminals to reduce the change of a contact issue.. Don't use too much or it will create its own problems...

Before I started using it on my vr3, I had alot of intermittent lock ups.. on my explorer it stopped the occasional computer reset.. On both the explorer and vr3 I always had the lockup or reset upon accent.. usually somewhere around 50% of maximum depth...

with the limited info so far I would look at the positive terminal...

mverick · 6th May 2008, 17:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

I really expected these problems to be of the past. Perhaps it's time to seriously investigate the use of external battery packs as standard via a fischer or wet connector. Kevin already mentioned two or three posts back that it can be done rather easily.

An external rechargeable battery pack like the one we use for umbilical torches with plenty of capacity and the small internal batteries as backup.

IMO that would solve these ongoing battery problems with the HH.

Or a battery of larger capacity inside the head in a sealed chamber.

My battery in my watch isn't soldered. Or Cochran dive computers. And no problems.

How about build the computer with a large enough capacitor to function if it intermitently looses power. And saves all data. So, when it comes back up it's still tracking? You just loose the display and the solenoid.

Good failsafe I'd think.

***jradomski*** · 6th May 2008, 17:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by Shaunzxr)

The batteries were duracell brand new reading 1.59 at start of dive
They read 1.4 during the dive. I think they were 1.3 at the end of the dive
The 5 minutes was on 15-12m stop, so no temp change. The temp was about 8 degree's
I didn't notice the voltage reading when the primary came back on.
This is the first time it has happened
It was an inland dive site so no salt.

I have tried my best to find conductive lubricant in the UK.
If anybody can point me in the right direction that would be great.

Ok sounds like the cell was fine.. Take a good look at the positive terminal inside the battery compartment..

there are 2 main types of conductive greases..
the cheapest is Carbon conductive grease and is usually the easiest to locate.. Silver conductive grease is a superior product but since its considerable more expensive you have to look a bit harder for it..

1 tube will last you forever.. you just need a tiny dab.. to install, I usually put a very small amount on the battery cap threads.. and a small dab directly on the battery (both positive and negative).. It may be overkill but I have never had a reset or lockup due to a bad contact on ANY device that I have used this with..

a quick google search came up with a few hits in the uk..
Vtech SMT Ltd : CW7100 Silver Conductive Grease x 6.5g

Tecknit Europe Contacts Page

For the aluminum handsets I prefer a compound designed for protecting al like noalox or no-ox-id (both found in electrical supply houses).

The stainless contacts have gone along way to aleviate issues but no mechanical electrical contact is perfect 100% of the time.. so I take an extra step for peace of mind.. The only connection thats reliable 100% of the time is a properly soldered connection..

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 6th May 2008, 18:44

Sounds like another good suggestion to add to the manual.

jiseson · 6th May 2008, 19:12

any benefit/harm to using NOALOX on battery + to handset contact?

***jradomski*** · 7th May 2008, 02:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by jiseson)

any benefit/harm to using NOALOX on battery + to handset contact?

Jonathan..
Noalox really isnt a conductive lubricant although its listed as such.. Its has conductivity but its quite low.. Its a special lubricant thats designed to prevent oxidation on aluminum products and is needed when using dissimilar metals.. Noalox contains zinc which becomes the sacraficial metal.. This is how it prevents oxidation and MAINTAINS a good connection.. Al-oxide is formed as soon as bare al is exposed to air.. al-oxide is non conductive.. so even after you clean contacts made out of aluminum they immediately start to become insulators.. NOALOX prevents this formation so that good contact can be maintained..

I guess for all SS connections it cant hurt, but I don't think it would be any real benefit.. like true conductive lubricant..

5th May 2008, 22:04	#121 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,693	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by Shaunzxr) Did a 75m dive today. Delrin computers 40mins into dive, on the ascent HUD flashed red at me and I noticed primary was dead. Ran the unit manually and after 5 mins the primary came back on. It reset itself and displayed no stop. The batteries were new and worked fine after the problem. There was no sign of corrosion when I opened the unit. I feel this is a serious problem and wondered if anyone else had this on the delrin handsets Its exactly what used to happen on the old nickle and the later Anodized hand sets. There will no doubt be a load of guff following about batteries and voltage load drain blah blah, but I fixed my one with a new mother board. Using the same battery that had failed before it worked just fine. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

5th May 2008, 23:46	#122 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 962	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Its exactly what used to happen on the old nickle and the later Anodized hand sets. There will no doubt be a load of guff following about batteries and voltage load drain blah blah, but I fixed my one with a new mother board. Using the same battery that had failed before it worked just fine. ATB Mark I really expected these problems to be of the past. Perhaps it's time to seriously investigate the use of external battery packs as standard via a fischer or wet connector. Kevin already mentioned two or three posts back that it can be done rather easily. An external rechargeable battery pack like the one we use for umbilical torches with plenty of capacity and the small internal batteries as backup. IMO that would solve these ongoing battery problems with the HH. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune
(Offline)

6th May 2008, 10:23	#123 (permalink)
louisrankin Póg mo thóin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: May 2005 Location: Cambridge Posts: 302	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Since your HUD flashed red I take it your PPO2 had dropped, at least you know the secondary is doing it's job!
(Online)

6th May 2008, 11:25	#124 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,998	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by Shaunzxr) Did a 75m dive today. Delrin computers 40mins into dive, on the ascent HUD flashed red at me and I noticed primary was dead. Ran the unit manually and after 5 mins the primary came back on. It reset itself and displayed no stop. The batteries were new and worked fine after the problem. There was no sign of corrosion when I opened the unit. I feel this is a serious problem and wondered if anyone else had this on the delrin handsets When you say the batteries were fine.. what was the voltage before the dive?? was the air alot warmer than the water?? You say it came back after 5 minutes.. did you ascend to warmer water?? after it came back on what was the voltage reading?? Has this happened only once?? These are questions to ask to help determine if its a handset problem or just a crap cell.. my personal recommendation is that if the voltage is less than 1.5v for an alkaline (when idle) on the surface change the cell.... I have seen way to many 1.5v batteries come out of the box at 1.4v and less... With the ss cap and spring Its unlikely that you will see corrosion, also with the large surface area on the cap/spring contact issues are not that likely.. but some oxidation on the contact at the bottom of the battery compartment is possible and since its a AA cell there is a relatively small contact area.. and if the battery has any oxidation its possible that a "dead" spot can form... Use a pencil eraser on the positive contact in the compartment.. Pressure will warp the case slightly then release its deformation, so a contact issue is possible... Personally I would like to see a spring loaded contact at the bottom as well.. to help isolate changes in the the case from the battery.. anytime a user replacable primary cell is used, the fact that its not a soldered contact means that contacts have to be checked regularly for oxidation.. On every dive computer that I own that has replaceble batteries I always use a bit of conductive lubricant on both the positive and negative terminals to reduce the change of a contact issue.. Don't use too much or it will create its own problems... Before I started using it on my vr3, I had alot of intermittent lock ups.. on my explorer it stopped the occasional computer reset.. On both the explorer and vr3 I always had the lockup or reset upon accent.. usually somewhere around 50% of maximum depth... with the limited info so far I would look at the positive terminal... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

6th May 2008, 16:14	#125 (permalink)
Shaunzxr Inspo Luver Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: UK, midlands Posts: 87	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues The batteries were duracell brand new reading 1.59 at start of dive They read 1.4 during the dive. I think they were 1.3 at the end of the dive The 5 minutes was on 15-12m stop, so no temp change. The temp was about 8 degree's I didn't notice the voltage reading when the primary came back on. This is the first time it has happened It was an inland dive site so no salt. I have tried my best to find conductive lubricant in the UK. If anybody can point me in the right direction that would be great. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) When you say the batteries were fine.. what was the voltage before the dive?? was the air alot warmer than the water?? You say it came back after 5 minutes.. did you ascend to warmer water?? after it came back on what was the voltage reading?? Has this happened only once?? These are questions to ask to help determine if its a handset problem or just a crap cell.. my personal recommendation is that if the voltage is less than 1.5v for an alkaline (when idle) on the surface change the cell.... I have seen way to many 1.5v batteries come out of the box at 1.4v and less... With the ss cap and spring Its unlikely that you will see corrosion, also with the large surface area on the cap/spring contact issues are not that likely.. but some oxidation on the contact at the bottom of the battery compartment is possible and since its a AA cell there is a relatively small contact area.. and if the battery has any oxidation its possible that a "dead" spot can form... Use a pencil eraser on the positive contact in the compartment.. Pressure will warp the case slightly then release its deformation, so a contact issue is possible... Personally I would like to see a spring loaded contact at the bottom as well.. to help isolate changes in the the case from the battery.. anytime a user replacable primary cell is used, the fact that its not a soldered contact means that contacts have to be checked regularly for oxidation.. On every dive computer that I own that has replaceble batteries I always use a bit of conductive lubricant on both the positive and negative terminals to reduce the change of a contact issue.. Don't use too much or it will create its own problems... Before I started using it on my vr3, I had alot of intermittent lock ups.. on my explorer it stopped the occasional computer reset.. On both the explorer and vr3 I always had the lockup or reset upon accent.. usually somewhere around 50% of maximum depth... with the limited info so far I would look at the positive terminal...
(Offline)

6th May 2008, 17:16	#126 (permalink)
mverick ScubaPimp Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 543	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) I really expected these problems to be of the past. Perhaps it's time to seriously investigate the use of external battery packs as standard via a fischer or wet connector. Kevin already mentioned two or three posts back that it can be done rather easily. An external rechargeable battery pack like the one we use for umbilical torches with plenty of capacity and the small internal batteries as backup. IMO that would solve these ongoing battery problems with the HH. Or a battery of larger capacity inside the head in a sealed chamber. My battery in my watch isn't soldered. Or Cochran dive computers. And no problems. How about build the computer with a large enough capacitor to function if it intermitently looses power. And saves all data. So, when it comes back up it's still tracking? You just loose the display and the solenoid. Good failsafe I'd think.
(Online)

6th May 2008, 17:17	#127 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,998	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by Shaunzxr) The batteries were duracell brand new reading 1.59 at start of dive They read 1.4 during the dive. I think they were 1.3 at the end of the dive The 5 minutes was on 15-12m stop, so no temp change. The temp was about 8 degree's I didn't notice the voltage reading when the primary came back on. This is the first time it has happened It was an inland dive site so no salt. I have tried my best to find conductive lubricant in the UK. If anybody can point me in the right direction that would be great. Ok sounds like the cell was fine.. Take a good look at the positive terminal inside the battery compartment.. there are 2 main types of conductive greases.. the cheapest is Carbon conductive grease and is usually the easiest to locate.. Silver conductive grease is a superior product but since its considerable more expensive you have to look a bit harder for it.. 1 tube will last you forever.. you just need a tiny dab.. to install, I usually put a very small amount on the battery cap threads.. and a small dab directly on the battery (both positive and negative).. It may be overkill but I have never had a reset or lockup due to a bad contact on ANY device that I have used this with.. a quick google search came up with a few hits in the uk.. Vtech SMT Ltd : CW7100 Silver Conductive Grease x 6.5g Tecknit Europe Contacts Page For the aluminum handsets I prefer a compound designed for protecting al like noalox or no-ox-id (both found in electrical supply houses). The stainless contacts have gone along way to aleviate issues but no mechanical electrical contact is perfect 100% of the time.. so I take an extra step for peace of mind.. The only connection thats reliable 100% of the time is a properly soldered connection.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

6th May 2008, 18:44	#128 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,138	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Sounds like another good suggestion to add to the manual. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

6th May 2008, 19:12	#129 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 562	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues any benefit/harm to using NOALOX on battery + to handset contact? __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson*
(Offline)

7th May 2008, 02:28	#130 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,998	Re: HammerHead Revisions and Issues Quote: (Originally Posted by jiseson) any benefit/harm to using NOALOX on battery + to handset contact? Jonathan.. Noalox really isnt a conductive lubricant although its listed as such.. Its has conductivity but its quite low.. Its a special lubricant thats designed to prevent oxidation on aluminum products and is needed when using dissimilar metals.. Noalox contains zinc which becomes the sacraficial metal.. This is how it prevents oxidation and MAINTAINS a good connection.. Al-oxide is formed as soon as bare al is exposed to air.. al-oxide is non conductive.. so even after you clean contacts made out of aluminum they immediately start to become insulators.. NOALOX prevents this formation so that good contact can be maintained.. I guess for all SS connections it cant hurt, but I don't think it would be any real benefit.. like true conductive lubricant.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode