My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends.

Mark Chase · 20th June 2006, 10:33

My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends.

Unit is prepped: Brand new Duracell Alkaline are fitted to both hand sets. The caps are cleaned in hot Biox dip. I still haven’t got any conducting 02 grease but I am on a promise from Andrew and surely cleaning the springs in Biox will be enough. I do the 02 calibration in a bag and today it all goes well. I get the 45mv+ I need and after calibration I compare both hand sets and they are showing a solid 1.0PP02. Having deflated the bag and left the cells in air for a bit I notice discrepancy between the two hand sets and air readings between. 0.20 and 0.25 so the cells are not that linier and the hand sets are reading the cells differently but up to 0.06

OK so dive 3 with the hammerhead is a wreck we haven’t figured out the name of yet in about 70m of water. Were on the mid deck at 63 and having exited the china hold I spot a lobster. The little fella puts up a good fight but between Simon and myself we manage to get it in the bag.

Then with my newly fitted shroud on my HUD I am alerted to a problem by flashing red lights. In the time it took me to catch and bag the lobby I have hit a PP02 of 2.5.

After the obligatory helium squeak of Oh Sh#t and despite the intensity of the situation I couldn’t help thinking how aptly named the Oh Sh#t drill was. I turned the 02 off and dill flushed the unit and all was quickly back in tolerance.

I scrolled down to the F02 function on the master hand set and did a proper dill flush and the cells were reading fine on my 15/50 trimix. Unfortunately I noted my pp02 was dropping a bit despite the unit injecting. At that point I figured it was probably as well to switch the 02 back on again

A final round of checks to make sure everything was stable and I signalled Simon all was well and we carried on, all be it with my eyes glued to the hand set.

A few mins later it spiked again to over 2.0, I was about to do another dill flush when I noted it dropping quite quickly back down. Checking my master ( I don’t check this so often as the screen scrolling is annoying) things seems to be quickly going back to normal so I decided to see what happened.

Then it happened again, but this time I could see what was going on. The master switched off and rebooted. In doing so it fired the solenoid spiking the PP02 over 2.0.
The infamous dodgy connection had bitten me in the arse at 62m.

Right time to turn the solenoid off and run the unit manually. I couldn’t help thinking what an excellent idea this was to have available.

Unfortunately the hand set wouldn’t stay awake long enough for me to scroll through the menu to get to the point where I could switch it off. It just kept rebooting and spiking the 02.

Bollocks

So I signalled Simon and we headed back to the shot. I was monitoring the PP02 closely and doing a dill flush every time it spiked just to get rid of the high PP02 quickly. According to the VR3 my CNS was 42% if I had been on a constant 1.3 and I was warm relaxed (amazingly) and doing little or nothing in the way of exertion so I decided to stay on loop and ascend.

Bad news was the 82mins of deco I had to endure with the unit playing silly buggers.

Ascent went OK ish at 21m I managed to turn the solenoid off. Annoyingly the unit seemed to be staying awake for longer than 2mins now but just occasionally it would reboot five or six times on the bounce and then run for a while.

Obviously I had no deco data on the HH it was saying I was fine to surface any time I liked. This made me wonder about what would happen if you had a one off failure say 10mins into the dive. Would the HH start to recalculate the deco from there thus missing out on the decent and the first 10min of bottom time? There is no way you could risk getting in the water with this and not have prior knowledge of your deco or a good back up computer. Problem is the HH on 25/85 takes big chunks out of the VR3 deco. So has it shut down or is it just giving better deco info?

Perhaps the 02 spike is not such a bad thing. At least it warns you the unit has switched of and on again.

I flew the unit manually through deco which was not a problem but it was a PITA for 82mins.

The other amusing thing was Simon pointing out how my hand sets were dissolving in front of my eyes. The chipped edges to the nickel plating were exposing the aluminium underneath and a million little bubbles were fizzing out all around the bezel.

I later suggested I could wire up the bezel to the computer and use it as a power source. An idea that the engineering minded Simon thought was cool

So now that the HH has tried to kill me I obviously hate it right? Welllllll not quite. I am stunned by the rubbish choice of materials and the poor design of the line if continuity for the power source on the hand sets but I still have a big soft spot for the cleanliness of the head design and its software function.

I am going to try nail varnish on the hand sets to attempt to stop them dissolving in front of me. I have been using silicone spray but that isn’t enough. I have the conductive grease on order so let’s see how I get on with that, and I am willing to throw away a set of batteries every other dive.

One thing that occurred to me? Seeing as the batteries make dry contact through the spring and the spring makes dry contact to the bezel and the bezel conducts the power to the computer… does the oxidation of the bezel in salt water cause any kind of current that could be interrupting the computer and causing a reboot?

I ask because having striped the hand set and checked the battery (1.45v) Simon then checked the power from the battery across the battery lid and we still got 1.45v. So the problem isn’t between the battery and the lid. I find it unbelievable that the lid screwed down tight has no point of electrical contact with the bezel so that to me leave the problem elsewhere. Either with the other end of the contact deep inside the battery housing or completely separate from the battery issue.

Today’s dive was canned which is almost a let off as I would have been franticly reassembling the Classic head with the HUD to use on the dive. I got the HH to avoid missing dives due to equipment failure but I didn’t expect it to be the HH that failed.

As an aside, I posted some time ago that nothig had gone seriously wrong on CCR yet and i was worried how I would cope with an actual issue. Now i have had a totaly rebreather related issue I was pleased to say I felt comfortable and it has boosted my confidence that i can deal logicly with with the problems.

Yeah yeah I know I forgot to switch the 02 back on but come on, it was my first go

ATB

Mark Chase

PCDiver · 20th June 2006, 10:53

Mark, try to get a case upgrade out of Kevin. This is definitely a production fault. The nickel plated handsets will continue to corrode and the corrosion will interfere with both the depth sensor and the wet sensor. Been there - done that.

So you discovered the built in drill functionality of the HH. Nice isn't it. Beats the use of flash cards.

I had this reboot - let's try to kill the user with a big O2 spike three times. Lucky for me it was not that deep. O2 only got to 2 bar. It was also the HUD that saved my but.

I'm not sure whether it makes sense for the HH primary to open the solenoid valve when submerged. It is plain dangerous and could easily be prevented with a check of the pressure sensor.

Another one for the suggestion list I guess.

PCDiver · 20th June 2006, 10:59

Here are some pictures to show the difference between nickel plated and SS version.

Mark Chase · 20th June 2006, 11:40

Damage to the edges of the nickle plated hand sets. These fizz like mad in salt water.

My mod to the HUD thanks to advice from RBW, thanks all it worked a treat when it was needed.

ATB

Mark Chase

PCDiver · 20th June 2006, 11:48

You already have the new SS bezel. I would still recommend to get the new body as well.

Another pic of the old one with corrosion on the sides but also in the housing (black spots). This was after 5 dives in salt water.

Mark Chase · 20th June 2006, 11:58

The pic of my one was after three dives in salt water which is about 6-7 hours exposure with my diving.

The dammage to the edges of the housing apear exactly the same as yours

Very bling hand sets but not very practicle in actual use.

ATB

Mark Chase

GuyW · 20th June 2006, 11:59

It is a mystery to me as to why you guys bother with HHs. They are a never ending source of grief. What is wrong with the standard handsets ?

Guy

PCDiver · 20th June 2006, 12:07

integrated nitrox/tx deco computer
secondary with bottom timer, depth, ...
hud - diva (I really like it)
smoother O2 control than normal handsets
new version of case/SS bezel has NO corrosion problems at all
no battery in the loop, battery is easy to change

builtin drill feature

Mark Chase · 20th June 2006, 12:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by GuyW)

It is a mystery to me as to why you guys bother with HHs. They are a never ending source of grief. What is wrong with the standard handsets ?

Guy

What you mean the ones that kept switching off during a dive and apparently develop mystery cracks, start munching batteries and have switches jam after the magnets corrode so badly they swell up. The one with the known problem with the internal reed switches. The one that suddenly goes into a repetitive reboot routine due to a low battery despite not showing a low battery moments before. The one where the gasses from the batteries can get into the breathing loop. Where a service involves cutting back the wiring and eventually results in a new loom being required.

That will be the same one with the dangly hand sets that get in the way and no HUD, no integrated deco or any of the other lovely features on the HH. The one that makes you miss a dive because of a low battery warning because you have to dekit and strip the unit and the one that makes the simple task of changing a cell and absolute nightmare and virtually imposable at the last moment to save a dive.

All units have issues. All units have good points as well. The Classic is a long long way from being good but its not bad either.

ATB

Mark Chase

***EBT*** · 20th June 2006, 12:40

Kiss

20th June 2006, 10:33	#1 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,854	My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. Unit is prepped: Brand new Duracell Alkaline are fitted to both hand sets. The caps are cleaned in hot Biox dip. I still haven’t got any conducting 02 grease but I am on a promise from Andrew and surely cleaning the springs in Biox will be enough. I do the 02 calibration in a bag and today it all goes well. I get the 45mv+ I need and after calibration I compare both hand sets and they are showing a solid 1.0PP02. Having deflated the bag and left the cells in air for a bit I notice discrepancy between the two hand sets and air readings between. 0.20 and 0.25 so the cells are not that linier and the hand sets are reading the cells differently but up to 0.06 OK so dive 3 with the hammerhead is a wreck we haven’t figured out the name of yet in about 70m of water. Were on the mid deck at 63 and having exited the china hold I spot a lobster. The little fella puts up a good fight but between Simon and myself we manage to get it in the bag. Then with my newly fitted shroud on my HUD I am alerted to a problem by flashing red lights. In the time it took me to catch and bag the lobby I have hit a PP02 of 2.5. After the obligatory helium squeak of Oh Sh#t and despite the intensity of the situation I couldn’t help thinking how aptly named the Oh Sh#t drill was. I turned the 02 off and dill flushed the unit and all was quickly back in tolerance. I scrolled down to the F02 function on the master hand set and did a proper dill flush and the cells were reading fine on my 15/50 trimix. Unfortunately I noted my pp02 was dropping a bit despite the unit injecting. At that point I figured it was probably as well to switch the 02 back on again A final round of checks to make sure everything was stable and I signalled Simon all was well and we carried on, all be it with my eyes glued to the hand set. A few mins later it spiked again to over 2.0, I was about to do another dill flush when I noted it dropping quite quickly back down. Checking my master ( I don’t check this so often as the screen scrolling is annoying) things seems to be quickly going back to normal so I decided to see what happened. Then it happened again, but this time I could see what was going on. The master switched off and rebooted. In doing so it fired the solenoid spiking the PP02 over 2.0. The infamous dodgy connection had bitten me in the arse at 62m. Right time to turn the solenoid off and run the unit manually. I couldn’t help thinking what an excellent idea this was to have available. Unfortunately the hand set wouldn’t stay awake long enough for me to scroll through the menu to get to the point where I could switch it off. It just kept rebooting and spiking the 02. Bollocks So I signalled Simon and we headed back to the shot. I was monitoring the PP02 closely and doing a dill flush every time it spiked just to get rid of the high PP02 quickly. According to the VR3 my CNS was 42% if I had been on a constant 1.3 and I was warm relaxed (amazingly) and doing little or nothing in the way of exertion so I decided to stay on loop and ascend. Bad news was the 82mins of deco I had to endure with the unit playing silly buggers. Ascent went OK ish at 21m I managed to turn the solenoid off. Annoyingly the unit seemed to be staying awake for longer than 2mins now but just occasionally it would reboot five or six times on the bounce and then run for a while. Obviously I had no deco data on the HH it was saying I was fine to surface any time I liked. This made me wonder about what would happen if you had a one off failure say 10mins into the dive. Would the HH start to recalculate the deco from there thus missing out on the decent and the first 10min of bottom time? There is no way you could risk getting in the water with this and not have prior knowledge of your deco or a good back up computer. Problem is the HH on 25/85 takes big chunks out of the VR3 deco. So has it shut down or is it just giving better deco info? Perhaps the 02 spike is not such a bad thing. At least it warns you the unit has switched of and on again. I flew the unit manually through deco which was not a problem but it was a PITA for 82mins. The other amusing thing was Simon pointing out how my hand sets were dissolving in front of my eyes. The chipped edges to the nickel plating were exposing the aluminium underneath and a million little bubbles were fizzing out all around the bezel. I later suggested I could wire up the bezel to the computer and use it as a power source. An idea that the engineering minded Simon thought was cool So now that the HH has tried to kill me I obviously hate it right? Welllllll not quite. I am stunned by the rubbish choice of materials and the poor design of the line if continuity for the power source on the hand sets but I still have a big soft spot for the cleanliness of the head design and its software function. I am going to try nail varnish on the hand sets to attempt to stop them dissolving in front of me. I have been using silicone spray but that isn’t enough. I have the conductive grease on order so let’s see how I get on with that, and I am willing to throw away a set of batteries every other dive. One thing that occurred to me? Seeing as the batteries make dry contact through the spring and the spring makes dry contact to the bezel and the bezel conducts the power to the computer… does the oxidation of the bezel in salt water cause any kind of current that could be interrupting the computer and causing a reboot? I ask because having striped the hand set and checked the battery (1.45v) Simon then checked the power from the battery across the battery lid and we still got 1.45v. So the problem isn’t between the battery and the lid. I find it unbelievable that the lid screwed down tight has no point of electrical contact with the bezel so that to me leave the problem elsewhere. Either with the other end of the contact deep inside the battery housing or completely separate from the battery issue. Today’s dive was canned which is almost a let off as I would have been franticly reassembling the Classic head with the HUD to use on the dive. I got the HH to avoid missing dives due to equipment failure but I didn’t expect it to be the HH that failed. As an aside, I posted some time ago that nothig had gone seriously wrong on CCR yet and i was worried how I would cope with an actual issue. Now i have had a totaly rebreather related issue I was pleased to say I felt comfortable and it has boosted my confidence that i can deal logicly with with the problems. Yeah yeah I know I forgot to switch the 02 back on but come on, it was my first go ATB Mark Chase __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote] Last edited by Mark Chase : 20th June 2006 at 10:35.
(Offline)

20th June 2006, 10:53	#2 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. Mark, try to get a case upgrade out of Kevin. This is definitely a production fault. The nickel plated handsets will continue to corrode and the corrosion will interfere with both the depth sensor and the wet sensor. Been there - done that. So you discovered the built in drill functionality of the HH. Nice isn't it. Beats the use of flash cards. I had this reboot - let's try to kill the user with a big O2 spike three times. Lucky for me it was not that deep. O2 only got to 2 bar. It was also the HUD that saved my but. I'm not sure whether it makes sense for the HH primary to open the solenoid valve when submerged. It is plain dangerous and could easily be prevented with a check of the pressure sensor. Another one for the suggestion list I guess.
(Online)

20th June 2006, 11:40	#4 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,854	Re: My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. Damage to the edges of the nickle plated hand sets. These fizz like mad in salt water. My mod to the HUD thanks to advice from RBW, thanks all it worked a treat when it was needed. ATB Mark Chase __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Offline)

20th June 2006, 11:58	#6 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,854	Re: My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. The pic of my one was after three dives in salt water which is about 6-7 hours exposure with my diving. The dammage to the edges of the housing apear exactly the same as yours Very bling hand sets but not very practicle in actual use. ATB Mark Chase __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Offline)

20th June 2006, 11:59	#7 (permalink)
GuyW Old Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 61	Re: My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. It is a mystery to me as to why you guys bother with HHs. They are a never ending source of grief. What is wrong with the standard handsets ? Guy
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20th June 2006, 12:07	#8 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,003	Re: My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. integrated nitrox/tx deco computer secondary with bottom timer, depth, ... hud - diva (I really like it) smoother O2 control than normal handsets new version of case/SS bezel has NO corrosion problems at all no battery in the loop, battery is easy to change builtin drill feature
(Online)

20th June 2006, 12:34	#9 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,854	Re: My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. Quote: (Originally Posted by GuyW) It is a mystery to me as to why you guys bother with HHs. They are a never ending source of grief. What is wrong with the standard handsets ? Guy What you mean the ones that kept switching off during a dive and apparently develop mystery cracks, start munching batteries and have switches jam after the magnets corrode so badly they swell up. The one with the known problem with the internal reed switches. The one that suddenly goes into a repetitive reboot routine due to a low battery despite not showing a low battery moments before. The one where the gasses from the batteries can get into the breathing loop. Where a service involves cutting back the wiring and eventually results in a new loom being required. That will be the same one with the dangly hand sets that get in the way and no HUD, no integrated deco or any of the other lovely features on the HH. The one that makes you miss a dive because of a low battery warning because you have to dekit and strip the unit and the one that makes the simple task of changing a cell and absolute nightmare and virtually imposable at the last moment to save a dive. All units have issues. All units have good points as well. The Classic is a long long way from being good but its not bad either. ATB Mark Chase __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Offline)

20th June 2006, 12:40	#10 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 2,105	Re: My HH tried to kill me but we are still friends. Kiss __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! RBW Terms of service
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