mCCR vs eCCR

Mdemon · 3rd February 2007, 21:41

eCCR? mCCR?

Dive what you like.

I like to dive, not run a machine. I let the machine do its job and I keep checking it does. Sound familiar?

The difference is that I don't have to press a button once in a while. But that's it. Hardly earth-shattering, is it?

OC I just breath and check a gauge. Nice and simple. I like my CCR diving to be as close to that as possible. Frankly, the difference (e & m) seems marginal at best and as has been pointed out on another thread, the real decider is the quality of the person the thing is strapped to.

Downtime · 4th February 2007, 07:34

As a previous poster suggested and I totally agree, you should always know how to use an eCCR as an mCCR, just in case.

This whole argument goes along the same lines of loop bailout. If something goes wrong on the loop, get off it and go to open circuit. In the same way you should know how to bail of the loop, if something goes wrong, you should also know how to bail off the "e" and go "m" if something goes wrong. I don't think anyone will make a point that since an e/mCCR is dangerous, and you already practice bail out procedures, you might as well just go open circuit and stay of the loop permanently. There's no choice there. BUT, with my eCCR, at least I have the choice to stay in "e" mode, or go to "m" mode.

Second point: Since the electronics are monitoring your PPO2 constantly (every second? 10 times / second ?), it will get just the PERFECT moment to add O2 to the mix to bring the target PPO2 back. I don't think anyone who is also watching their buddy/surroundings/wreck/etc, will be checking their gauges every second to catch that perfect moment.

Let the computers do that thing, which we know they do the best, the boring menial tasks. I'll take over if anything goes wrong, and check every 15/30/60 seconds to enjoy my dive. Just say "no" to task loading.

Just my 5.2c adjusted for inflation.

Cheers,
Michael

silent running · 4th February 2007, 10:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Downtime)

As a previous poster suggested and I totally agree, you should always know how to use an eCCR as an mCCR, just in case.

This whole argument goes along the same lines of loop bailout. If something goes wrong on the loop, get off it and go to open circuit. In the same way you should know how to bail of the loop, if something goes wrong, you should also know how to bail off the "e" and go "m" if something goes wrong. I don't think anyone will make a point that since an e/mCCR is dangerous, and you already practice bail out procedures, you might as well just go open circuit and stay of the loop permanently. There's no choice there. BUT, with my eCCR, at least I have the choice to stay in "e" mode, or go to "m" mode.

Second point: Since the electronics are monitoring your PPO2 constantly (every second? 10 times / second ?), it will get just the PERFECT moment to add O2 to the mix to bring the target PPO2 back. I don't think anyone who is also watching their buddy/surroundings/wreck/etc, will be checking their gauges every second to catch that perfect moment.

Let the computers do that thing, which we know they do the best, the boring menial tasks. I'll take over if anything goes wrong, and check every 15/30/60 seconds to enjoy my dive. Just say "no" to task loading.

Just my 5.2c adjusted for inflation.

Cheers,
Michael

Here, here Michael. Well put, -Andy

Ben Field · 4th February 2007, 11:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL)

A buddy of mine used to have an ol MG. He loved that car but the names he could come up with for the elec system.

RAL

Old English cars are fine so long as you drive around with a jar of replacement smoke in the boot.... they don't run so good when it all leaks out of the wires IME.

rdmmdr · 5th February 2007, 05:30

you have to love the can of factory installed smoke. nothing works once you let it out.

rick

OceanOpportunity · 7th February 2007, 18:38

along the lines of the eCCR is like cruise control comment... why not incorporate both an orifice and SPC (as a parachute) as a standard in all units. Some may argue this adds complexity/failure point, but I'd hardly think that one hose with an orifice is enough to task-load. With both in place, should the electronics/solonoid fail (closed) and there were a time lag with checking your handsets, O2 is still trickling into the loop, which in theory, would reduce the possibility of hypoxia sneaking up on you.

**Dave Sutton** · 7th February 2007, 18:44

why not incorporate both an orifice and SPC (as a parachute)"

Because there are many times on an eCCR when it is desirable to lower the PP02 slowly by metabolizing the mix (IE you bottom out hotter than setpoint) and an orifice delays the burnoff time unless 02 supply to it is secured thru a valve (generally the main 02 valve).

Don't mix modes. High quality systems don't require parachutes. If you are not confident in your rig, don't add more crap: Replace it with something you are fully confident in.

Dave

SteveL · 8th February 2007, 11:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

. If you are not confident in your rig, don't add more crap: Replace it with something you are fully confident in.

Dave

cant agree more -

you alway have such clarity Dave - thanks.

SteveL

**Gill Envy** · 8th February 2007, 16:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by SteveL)

cant agree more -

you alway have such clarity Dave - thanks.

SteveL

While i'm tempted to make the same conclusion, the numbers don't suggest that confidence has much to do with safety when it comes to rebreathers... in fact it seems that the opposite is true. A healthy level of distrust seems to me to be the key.

3rd February 2007, 21:41	#11 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,931	Re: mCCR vs eCCR eCCR? mCCR? Dive what you like. I like to dive, not run a machine. I let the machine do its job and I keep checking it does. Sound familiar? The difference is that I don't have to press a button once in a while. But that's it. Hardly earth-shattering, is it? OC I just breath and check a gauge. Nice and simple. I like my CCR diving to be as close to that as possible. Frankly, the difference (e & m) seems marginal at best and as has been pointed out on another thread, the real decider is the quality of the person the thing is strapped to. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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4th February 2007, 07:34	#12 (permalink)
Downtime New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 39	Re: mCCR vs eCCR As a previous poster suggested and I totally agree, you should always know how to use an eCCR as an mCCR, just in case. This whole argument goes along the same lines of loop bailout. If something goes wrong on the loop, get off it and go to open circuit. In the same way you should know how to bail of the loop, if something goes wrong, you should also know how to bail off the "e" and go "m" if something goes wrong. I don't think anyone will make a point that since an e/mCCR is dangerous, and you already practice bail out procedures, you might as well just go open circuit and stay of the loop permanently. There's no choice there. BUT, with my eCCR, at least I have the choice to stay in "e" mode, or go to "m" mode. Second point: Since the electronics are monitoring your PPO2 constantly (every second? 10 times / second ?), it will get just the PERFECT moment to add O2 to the mix to bring the target PPO2 back. I don't think anyone who is also watching their buddy/surroundings/wreck/etc, will be checking their gauges every second to catch that perfect moment. Let the computers do that thing, which we know they do the best, the boring menial tasks. I'll take over if anything goes wrong, and check every 15/30/60 seconds to enjoy my dive. Just say "no" to task loading. Just my 5.2c adjusted for inflation. Cheers, Michael
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4th February 2007, 10:39	#13 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: mCCR vs eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Downtime) As a previous poster suggested and I totally agree, you should always know how to use an eCCR as an mCCR, just in case. This whole argument goes along the same lines of loop bailout. If something goes wrong on the loop, get off it and go to open circuit. In the same way you should know how to bail of the loop, if something goes wrong, you should also know how to bail off the "e" and go "m" if something goes wrong. I don't think anyone will make a point that since an e/mCCR is dangerous, and you already practice bail out procedures, you might as well just go open circuit and stay of the loop permanently. There's no choice there. BUT, with my eCCR, at least I have the choice to stay in "e" mode, or go to "m" mode. Second point: Since the electronics are monitoring your PPO2 constantly (every second? 10 times / second ?), it will get just the PERFECT moment to add O2 to the mix to bring the target PPO2 back. I don't think anyone who is also watching their buddy/surroundings/wreck/etc, will be checking their gauges every second to catch that perfect moment. Let the computers do that thing, which we know they do the best, the boring menial tasks. I'll take over if anything goes wrong, and check every 15/30/60 seconds to enjoy my dive. Just say "no" to task loading. Just my 5.2c adjusted for inflation. Cheers, Michael Here, here Michael. Well put, -Andy
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4th February 2007, 11:10	#14 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,632	Re: mCCR vs eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by RAL) A buddy of mine used to have an ol MG. He loved that car but the names he could come up with for the elec system. RAL Old English cars are fine so long as you drive around with a jar of replacement smoke in the boot.... they don't run so good when it all leaks out of the wires IME. __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
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5th February 2007, 05:30	#15 (permalink)
rdmmdr designer of death Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: kerman,california Posts: 372	Re: mCCR vs eCCR you have to love the can of factory installed smoke. nothing works once you let it out. rick
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7th February 2007, 18:38	#16 (permalink)
OceanOpportunity for a world of water Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Providence, RI USA Posts: 541	Re: mCCR vs eCCR along the lines of the eCCR is like cruise control comment... why not incorporate both an orifice and SPC (as a parachute) as a standard in all units. Some may argue this adds complexity/failure point, but I'd hardly think that one hose with an orifice is enough to task-load. With both in place, should the electronics/solonoid fail (closed) and there were a time lag with checking your handsets, O2 is still trickling into the loop, which in theory, would reduce the possibility of hypoxia sneaking up on you. __________________ Michael Lombardi Oceans of Opportunity www.oceanopportunity.com Elected Director, Society for Human Performance in Extreme Environments MN'07, The Explorers Club Project Manager, Diving a Dream
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7th February 2007, 18:44	#17 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,686	Re: mCCR vs eCCR why not incorporate both an orifice and SPC (as a parachute)" Because there are many times on an eCCR when it is desirable to lower the PP02 slowly by metabolizing the mix (IE you bottom out hotter than setpoint) and an orifice delays the burnoff time unless 02 supply to it is secured thru a valve (generally the main 02 valve). Don't mix modes. High quality systems don't require parachutes. If you are not confident in your rig, don't add more crap: Replace it with something you are fully confident in. Dave __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com Last edited by Dave Sutton : 7th February 2007 at 18:47.
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8th February 2007, 11:16	#18 (permalink)
SteveL Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 222	Re: mCCR vs eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) . If you are not confident in your rig, don't add more crap: Replace it with something you are fully confident in. Dave cant agree more - you alway have such clarity Dave - thanks. SteveL
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8th February 2007, 16:48	#19 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,326	Re: mCCR vs eCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by SteveL) cant agree more - you alway have such clarity Dave - thanks. SteveL While i'm tempted to make the same conclusion, the numbers don't suggest that confidence has much to do with safety when it comes to rebreathers... in fact it seems that the opposite is true. A healthy level of distrust seems to me to be the key. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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