Training = holy grail?

fireman

Some seem to assert that training will make diving rebreather safe. They then go on to assert that lack of training is the cause of all accidents.

I think this is absolute crap.

Many safely dive a rebreather without "training" (formal)

I built/converted a rebreather and trained myself, divng solo.

To equate training with learning, is frequently wrong...See padi open water non training for an extreme case.

I have seen people with 100's of (warm water) dives, and a fist full of cert cards who I wouldn't let hold my fins.

I have had arguements about training (DIR) with old men with man-breasts who would make me nervious letting them climb the stairs in my house let alone dive with. Have you had a stress test in the last 2 years--if you are tech diving you should. If you can't swim or fin a mile or so in a reasonalbe about of time you should get in the pool. But being Mark Spitz or Lance Armstrong will not save you from the evil spirit (see below).

You could be rebreather god himself and as a malevolent spirit in a Rebreather controller I am sure I could kill you everytime, in short time. Even if you are mod 3 GUE super cave/wreck****** #7....

But in the end, stay safe.

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Heres to you Capt. Bill
Never Forget, and stay safe everyone.

EricD

Are you suggesting that it is ok for a new rebreather diver to dive a [insert rebreather unit here] without any training? IMO, this is crazy. Would you attempt a highly specialized form of diving, such as cave, without any kind of training/knowledge of the environment/discipline? IMO, this is ludicrous.

I hear what you're saying about training being the be-all and end-all, but it is designed to give one a base to LEARN and gain EXPERIENCE from. As someone who has gone through numerous training courses, I believe what the diver gains is a result of the instructor, themselves. A good instructor is one that will share knowledge with the student and will, for a lack of a better word, 'hammer' the student throughout the course so the student will develop the muscle memory from which to build off of. A poor instructor will just go through the motions to minimally satisfy minimal course requirements. I'm guessing you were referring to the later. After any course, is the student an expert? No. But the idea, again, is to give the student a base (and confidence) to build off of in a safe manner. FWIW, I am not an instructor, dive master, or affiliated with a shop or agency in any form.

Dive safe,

Eric

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Classic KISS #317

PaulTG2

Hello,

KNOWLEDGE expressed as CORRECT and PROFICIENT ACTION during a PROBLEM is the holly grail.

Most people begin their journey towards that in a FORMAL training program. Other find it in an INFORMAL training program they conduct themselves -- by reading, understanding, and progressive experimentation. In either case the target is to learn from the experience and knowledge of others. In either case, for these folks the hope is that the lessons come before the real test.

Those that don't train, formally or informally, do not learn from the experience and knowledge of others. These folks are going to learn lessons other already learned. For these people, the test most likely comes before the lesson. As cost of failing the test can easily be death, learning from others seem more intelligent.

Regardless of the method of training, formal or self-directed, the life preserving result will be KNOWLEDGE expressed as CORRECT and PROFICIENT ACTION during a PROBLEM is the holly grail.

On the other hand, dismissing someone's opinion or knowledge in one areas because of their failing in another, such as fitness, puts you in the group that is looking to take the test before the lesson. Everyone has failings in one area or another, and everyone has something you would probably do well to learn. Finding that isn't always easy though.


-p

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Paul's first law states that the safety of an activity is determined by how forgiving of mistakes the activity is.

Paul's second law states that the difference between an adventurer and an explorer is whether the doing or the learning comes first.

fireman

What I believe vs. what I write to provoke a usefully debate...

To use a rebreather in real ignorence would be suicidal.
It is possible to have a cert card or pass a class and still be ignorent.

But as I said it is possible to be both certified and educated and in shape and have a Rebreather kill you.

On the fitness issue--well its your life. And hey going for a shallow swim in still warm water is probably easier than walking. But going into battle...another issue all together. And I think its more relavent to Rebreather diving than OC, because of the failure modes, and associated task loading you are more likely to survive (to be able to use your trained skills and muscle memory if you like) if you are in shape. It is also important because diving unlike say rock climbing or say a triathalon, doesn't make you fit if you do it a lot, and you can be a "good" or very proficient diver even if you are bad shape.

Whats your pulse rate right now, if its much over 60, either I have irritated you or you might not be fit enough to be doing serious dives--ie any with doubles or a Rebreather.

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Heres to you Capt. Bill
Never Forget, and stay safe everyone.

Mixaddict

Dear Fireman,

I really don't quite understand the purpose of your post. I think pretty much everyone on the planet (except for a select few "frequent posters" on Rebreather World) would agree that if you choose the instructor carefully, listen and absorb the materials/skills/protocols carefully, practice newly acquired skills diligently, and then dive with the mentality that you don't know everything and probably never will, you will be in for a much more pleasant rebreather experience.

Just like life in general, all school classes are not created equal. During my training, I have had for the most part, exceptional experiences, because I have chosen very carefully who I have done my training with. When you seek out the best, and then approach the class with an open mind and strive to learn something from the instructor as well as implement the good things that you take away from the class, it tends to be a positive experience.

I have never heard that "training is the holy grail", but I would say that if you are spending your own hard earned money on training for whatever reason, you would be foolish to not get the most bang for your buck!

I have certainly found in my own case that there are still lot's of people that have a lot to offer me. Why not take advantage of other people's experience and knowledge? Unless of course, you are one of the blessed few who already know it all! Cert cards have little meaning in the overall scheme of things. It's what you learn in the course that has meaning and helps to keep you alive and having an enjoyable time. But hey, if you have nothing more to learn from any instructor, don't waste your time or money!

Just my $.02

Regards,
Randy

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Randy Thornton (MixAddict)
Inspiration, Evolution,Hammerhead & Sentinel
CCR Instructor

Chii

I think Mr fireman is right about divers that match their confidence with the amounts of certificates in ther wallet. It is way to common up here with fatalities that occur when people cant handle the cold conditions with low visibility. Just beacuse you learned how to dive in temperd fish tank water dosent mean thay you do well under the baltic sea ice.

I liket the phrase "just beacuse you are certified doesnt mean you are qualified"

Drmike

Personaly,

All I think one needs to stay alive on a rebreather is the right attitude.

The right attitude to:

- Educate oneself on how safetly to use them in the environment you wish to (Self teach, Mentor teach or do a Course)
- Educate oneself on weaknesses and work arounds of particular unit
- Keep complacency at bay
- Practice skills
- Properly maintain equipment




How one educates oneself is largely irrelevant - so long as one does.

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Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

AM

I could not agree more. I started a similar thread several years ago "self teaching vs. agency training" if you're interested in further commentary. Added: here is the thread link - http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...-training.html

Yes and usually have an extremely strong focus on continuous improvement of learning, as opposed to the mindset that once certified, they're competent. Agency training seems to instil a very complacement mindset in many CCR divers that certified=competent. Training most categorically does not equate to competence or experience!

I bought my first rebreather second hand and trained myself, also diving solo. Much, much safer from a mentality and attitude perspective than falling into the cult mindset that agency training + buddy = equals competent.

Yes cardiovascular fitness is essential in CCR diving. I am also astonished at how many unfit divers are using CCRs and we wonder why there are so many reported CO2 incidents. It is established that lack of cardiovascular fitness is a factor in higher CO2 production in those individuals.

Attitude is the best weapon for staying alive. You can have all the tickets in the world, all the buddies, all the bailout, but the wrong attitude and lack of life-saving, prompt decision making skills is sure to end your life.

Regards

AnneMarie

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AM

On the fitness issue, I totally agree that diving does not lend itself to improving fitness. My target maximum heart rate for cardiovascular conditioning is around 190 bpm. Try doing that on a rebreather!! The WOB implications alone are insane.

Having average fitness is not good enough for rebreather diving, it should be well above average, particularly for cold-water, high work rate divers.

Regards

AnneMarie

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jkaterenchuk

Is it not also true that highly fit people are also more likely to be CO2 retainers? If I am correct on this then the fitness issue is not so black and white.

Using resting heart rate is also not necessarily the only or best measure of fitness.

I do agree that a higher level of fitness provides a safety factor cushion as it generally does for any activity that places a workload on the heart.

John