Want to help design a new rebreather?

***schford*** · 24th July 2005, 17:24

I am sure you have seen the thread on CO2 testing, at the end of it Alex proposes utilising our collective experience to help design an open source rebreather - we could call it the Rebreather World Revolution ;-)

Everything about it open with the testing published for all to see and comment on and help influence the design...

Well anyway - if there is positive feedback on this I am happy to get Rebreather World involved in this formally and provide the 40gb web space needed and have RBW host the development forums....

So vote and let us know please....plus any ideas.....

Stuart

dave t · 24th July 2005, 17:39

I read alex's post and on the face of it seems like a good idea and he gives some very convincing arguments for doing it, but where will it go?, who will benifit from it? Is it just a way of the minority sucking good ideas and information for free from the majority?

There are plenty of guys on this forum who have a lot of knowledge about rebreather design, and lots who can see the faults in the current ones, but there are also lots of percieved problems that dont really exist. who is going to soft the good ideas from the paranoia? And at the end is the minority gonna get rich on the expertise of the majority, for free!!!???

or maybe I am missing the point!

Dave

***Decodiver*** · 24th July 2005, 18:06

Patents are about protecting people's intellectual property and physical products, the key words as I see it, are, open source.

So someone is going to put there time and money into producing a CCR, with ideas and input from a wider audience.

I do not see a problem with that, they will incurr expenses of their own and undoubtedly will pay for the production of any future prototype unit themselves.

I have a problem seeing a downside to this.

You never know, they might actually build something revolutionary!

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

ROB DAVIE · 24th July 2005, 18:15

Dave T, et al,

A theoretical design exercise may well coalesce formative thoughts that are out floating around in the community, and if the manufacturers take it to heart and change design features based on those ideas, we are still all well-served by the process. After all, very few of us will ever design and manufacture a re-breather, even if we do have some good ideas about how it should be done, n'est pas, mon ami?

Rob

Simon A · 24th July 2005, 23:03

Open source 'breather development seems a good idea.
It will put the info out in the open, and would be a considerable resource.
Anyone who wanted to manufactue a rebreather based on it would have to devote resources to manufacturing (and getting the relevent tests performed on) the unit.
Also even if it ends up as a homebuild, with enough units as a user base there's nothing to stop an agency writing a sylibus for training on the unit (as I beleive is being done for closed up dolphins).

Simon A

mind · 25th July 2005, 15:03

Hi Guys

Okay, some comments from someone who has designed and built a rebreather.

There needs to be some up-front decisions about this the design. Things like: specialised machining allowed (CNC mill would be an example). Back/Front or OTS counterlungs ? Expected MOD ? Electronics ?

As I am sure you agree, these things have a fundemental influence on how the end result works.

Now, the next question, is: Who makes these decisions ?

-Bye
-Richard

Simon A · 25th July 2005, 15:43

Following on from the previous post. here are my(potentialy worthless) views on it.
Yes a basic design criteria needs to be agreed.
As to back mount or OTS counterlungs, my sugestion would be to make the unit modular so it could accomodate either.
As to the query concerning specialist machined parts, If we are aiming for the best rebreather we can. It would be stupid to not use specialist parts if necessary, but it may be best to agree that it's a last resort once we've tried all the of the shelf alternatives.
Also I would sugest that people give consideration to what sort of development plan to follow. Do we want to go straight for the "furry dice" all singing, all dancing full eccr, or do we want to develop in stages, ie. develop as a KISS style unit to prove WOB /ease of construction and use, then develop the ECCR/full gas monitoring bits.

Simon A

Mdemon · 25th July 2005, 15:46

Excellent idea. If nothing more than intellectual debate comes from it, the very least we can expect is the mainstream manufacturers getting a better idea of what their market really wants. Free, unbiased market research and not by being ambushed by a little old lady with a clipboard... The endstate would be the ideas reaching development, production and being used by us. No downsides that I can see?

There are a number of ways of finding out what people want. Three ideas spring to mind.

Functionality-based. e.g. Counterlung positioning. For each function a thread allows concensus to be formed.

Risk analysis(paranoia)-based. e.g. CO2 hit - what deisign features would mitigate this?

Simple voting! e.g. Who thinks a DSV is a good idea and why?

Even if some fantastic ideas are voted down, manufacturers would still have the opportunity to see them in the threads and evaluate them beased on their own knowledge, likely to be rather more in-depth...
Just a thought...

***Louby Lou*** · 25th July 2005, 15:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

Free, unbiased market research and not by being ambushed by a little old lady with a clipboard...

LOL

Although I am no where near qualified to partake in such 'technical chat' I do have the R&D engineering department at Warwick University at my disposable... well sort of, I'm sure I can twist a few arms for a few beers

uri · 25th July 2005, 18:33

Guys,

This is a topic close to my heart but it always comes back down to a design approach philosophy. I suggest that there is no point in 'inventing' an all singing all dancing expensive rebreather that will never be built or sold but a really cheap simple unapproved entry level performance rebreather that can be upgraded would be a very interesting concept. How cheaply can it be made? Nice to see a really cheap, entry level homebuilders unit, might add some choice to the market.

Uri.

24th July 2005, 17:24	#1 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,562	Want to help design a new rebreather? I am sure you have seen the thread on CO2 testing, at the end of it Alex proposes utilising our collective experience to help design an open source rebreather - we could call it the Rebreather World Revolution ;-) Everything about it open with the testing published for all to see and comment on and help influence the design... Well anyway - if there is positive feedback on this I am happy to get Rebreather World involved in this formally and provide the 40gb web space needed and have RBW host the development forums.... So vote and let us know please....plus any ideas..... Stuart
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24th July 2005, 17:39	#2 (permalink)
dave t Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 654	I read alex's post and on the face of it seems like a good idea and he gives some very convincing arguments for doing it, but where will it go?, who will benifit from it? Is it just a way of the minority sucking good ideas and information for free from the majority? There are plenty of guys on this forum who have a lot of knowledge about rebreather design, and lots who can see the faults in the current ones, but there are also lots of percieved problems that dont really exist. who is going to soft the good ideas from the paranoia? And at the end is the minority gonna get rich on the expertise of the majority, for free!!!??? or maybe I am missing the point! Dave
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24th July 2005, 18:06	#3 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,181	Patents are about protecting people's intellectual property and physical products, the key words as I see it, are, open source. So someone is going to put there time and money into producing a CCR, with ideas and input from a wider audience. I do not see a problem with that, they will incurr expenses of their own and undoubtedly will pay for the production of any future prototype unit themselves. I have a problem seeing a downside to this. You never know, they might actually build something revolutionary! Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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24th July 2005, 18:15	#4 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Dave T, et al, A theoretical design exercise may well coalesce formative thoughts that are out floating around in the community, and if the manufacturers take it to heart and change design features based on those ideas, we are still all well-served by the process. After all, very few of us will ever design and manufacture a re-breather, even if we do have some good ideas about how it should be done, n'est pas, mon ami? Rob __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
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24th July 2005, 23:03	#5 (permalink)
Simon A Escapee from DIY Rebreather's Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Reading, UK Posts: 312	Open source 'breather development seems a good idea. It will put the info out in the open, and would be a considerable resource. Anyone who wanted to manufactue a rebreather based on it would have to devote resources to manufacturing (and getting the relevent tests performed on) the unit. Also even if it ends up as a homebuild, with enough units as a user base there's nothing to stop an agency writing a sylibus for training on the unit (as I beleive is being done for closed up dolphins). Simon A
(Offline)

25th July 2005, 15:03	#6 (permalink)
mind New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2	Hi Guys Okay, some comments from someone who has designed and built a rebreather. There needs to be some up-front decisions about this the design. Things like: specialised machining allowed (CNC mill would be an example). Back/Front or OTS counterlungs ? Expected MOD ? Electronics ? As I am sure you agree, these things have a fundemental influence on how the end result works. Now, the next question, is: Who makes these decisions ? -Bye -Richard
(Offline)

25th July 2005, 15:43	#7 (permalink)
Simon A Escapee from DIY Rebreather's Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Reading, UK Posts: 312	Following on from the previous post. here are my(potentialy worthless) views on it. Yes a basic design criteria needs to be agreed. As to back mount or OTS counterlungs, my sugestion would be to make the unit modular so it could accomodate either. As to the query concerning specialist machined parts, If we are aiming for the best rebreather we can. It would be stupid to not use specialist parts if necessary, but it may be best to agree that it's a last resort once we've tried all the of the shelf alternatives. Also I would sugest that people give consideration to what sort of development plan to follow. Do we want to go straight for the "furry dice" all singing, all dancing full eccr, or do we want to develop in stages, ie. develop as a KISS style unit to prove WOB /ease of construction and use, then develop the ECCR/full gas monitoring bits. Simon A
(Offline)

25th July 2005, 15:46	#8 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,927	Excellent idea. If nothing more than intellectual debate comes from it, the very least we can expect is the mainstream manufacturers getting a better idea of what their market really wants. Free, unbiased market research and not by being ambushed by a little old lady with a clipboard... The endstate would be the ideas reaching development, production and being used by us. No downsides that I can see? There are a number of ways of finding out what people want. Three ideas spring to mind. Functionality-based. e.g. Counterlung positioning. For each function a thread allows concensus to be formed. Risk analysis(paranoia)-based. e.g. CO2 hit - what deisign features would mitigate this? Simple voting! e.g. Who thinks a DSV is a good idea and why? Even if some fantastic ideas are voted down, manufacturers would still have the opportunity to see them in the threads and evaluate them beased on their own knowledge, likely to be rather more in-depth... Just a thought... __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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25th July 2005, 15:56	#9 (permalink)
*Louby Lou* XLVI WC! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Roman Corinium! Posts: 1,019	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) Free, unbiased market research and not by being ambushed by a little old lady with a clipboard... LOL Although I am no where near qualified to partake in such 'technical chat' I do have the R&D engineering department at Warwick University at my disposable... well sort of, I'm sure I can twist a few arms for a few beers __________________ Miss Lou x Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreatherworld Terms and Conditions - Please read! Outlaw Divers - Sssh we're diving! You heff vays uff dealink vis zem, oh Miss Rebreather World Admin! - Rob Davie Feb 06
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25th July 2005, 18:33	#10 (permalink)
uri Uri Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sandhurst UK Posts: 37	Focus Guys, This is a topic close to my heart but it always comes back down to a design approach philosophy. I suggest that there is no point in 'inventing' an all singing all dancing expensive rebreather that will never be built or sold but a really cheap simple unapproved entry level performance rebreather that can be upgraded would be a very interesting concept. How cheaply can it be made? Nice to see a really cheap, entry level homebuilders unit, might add some choice to the market. Uri.
(Offline)

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