Want to help design a new rebreather?

Mdemon · 25th July 2005, 21:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by uri)

Guys,

This is a topic close to my heart but it always comes back down to a design approach philosophy. I suggest that there is no point in 'inventing' an all singing all dancing expensive rebreather that will never be built or sold but a really cheap simple unapproved entry level performance rebreather that can be upgraded would be a very interesting concept. How cheaply can it be made? Nice to see a really cheap, entry level homebuilders unit, might add some choice to the market.

Uri.

OK, I'll make a suggestion which goes along with this.

Most of us are here because we already have a unit, right? So, what do none of us have, that could be entry level, home-built, but ultimately upgradeable?

If we follow Uri's suggestion, I vote that the first "project" is for a simple, low cost bailout rebreather. Basic bits + PO2 measurement. Upgradeable to full ECCR would be my end-state.

How does this sit with people?

It is one thing that I'd love APD to pick up and run with...

***Decodiver*** · 25th July 2005, 22:21

A BOB is a good idea.

Personally I am waiting for Pawel to come up with the goodies on the Castoro Abyss.

In fact where is Pawel? Has anyone seen him? He doesn't appear to have been on the site since early June.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

AD_ward9 · 25th July 2005, 22:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

OK, I'll make a suggestion which goes along with this.

Most of us are here because we already have a unit, right? So, what do none of us have, that could be entry level, home-built, but ultimately upgradeable?

If we follow Uri's suggestion, I vote that the first "project" is for a simple, low cost bailout rebreather. Basic bits + PO2 measurement. Upgradeable to full ECCR would be my end-state.

How does this sit with people?

It is one thing that I'd love APD to pick up and run with...

The purpose of the Open Rebreather is one that is completely safe. Doing it in stages starting with perilous designs is no different to any one of the dozens of home rebreather projects on the web, and it not what is proposed.

Cost is related primarily to the production tooling that is put in place. The proposed basis for the design has 0.9Kg of plastic (at $6 a kg), titanium for all metal parts ($38 worth), quite a chunky sum for the sensors and about $150 for the electronics. CNC it all, and it will be very expensive. Mould the plastic and it is cheap.

The proposal is a Super-CCR, all singing and all dancing, completely public.

The information that will be published will be very interesting for a lot of people, including all CCR manufacturers.

There are some commercial issues (ie who pays the costs of doing this - we have ideas on that), legal issues (putting together a patent policy - we propose it is just like JEDEC's current policy, and who owns what). There is a pile of white papers to write to put down what the issues are in each main subsystem of the Rebreather, as the real issues are not public at all at the moment.

If we adopt the Rebreather I put on this site as the basis, it can be modified with any type of breathing bag or cylinder combo and fits Draeger as well as APD hose fittings. This is better than using a Mk15.5 as the basis as trying to put the latest technology into legacy hardware is, in my experience, something that carries a huge overhead. That particular unit went through trials with quite a few user groups, from club divers to extreme divers, and the opinion was it was pretty near perfect in configuration. It was designed from the outset to be EN14143 compliant, and fail safe and fault tolerant to the billion hour level. Obviously in full exposure, people might find weaknesses or better ways to do things. Fine, we can bring in all ideas after debate.

I have done this open stuff before. I setup www.stateye.org (not as pretty as this web site - due to time, but content is very good if you are into that sort of thing) and led the main part of the development. We took it from mystery to in use by all standards committees involved in high speed comms within 18 months. It is used by all major companies involved in high speed comms. I still get emails such as the one last week from a gentleman at Intel saying what a fantastic job we did and how great the tool is. We should do the same with a safe eCCR.

I suggest the name Open Revolution, and it be on the Rebreather World site.

It needs a forum with subsections on:
1. O2 sensing and injection. I will kick this off with a White Paper explaining how a safe O2 control system works, one that can stand any type or combo of failures, even all sensors developing the ceiling failure mode at once (where the sensor does not produce more than a certain output level, so existing controllers pump in O2 trying to fix the PPO2, until they run out of gas and the user is dead).

2. Auto Shut Off Valves, Auto Bail out, Auto Flush, Auto Dil

3. Gas monitoring: He, CO2, non-galvanic O2 sensing etc

4. Fault tolerant architecture

5. Scrubber config, so it is idiot proof and does not suffer from sudden failure ever

6. Handset.
- self tests
- pre dive checks
- cal
- dive mode
- deco code (I like the idea of publishing 3, Buhlmann, VPM, and RGBM, in full source so people can write their own and download it)

7. Ancilliary parts
Hoses, Breathing bags, water dumps, harnesses, backplate

8. FMECA

9. Simulation results
- Code
- Firmware
- Flow simulation
- Prototype verification results
- Approvals results
All with the models so people can run their own tests and publish their own results

10. Current Design Spec
A download area.

11. Approvals testing
- Changes needed to standards to protect users
- results of standards testing (not just EN14143, but there are about 20 standards an eCCR must meet)

Issues are cost and ownership. The former, as I have said, we have ideas on and are talking to a number of companies already. Ownership, as it is not open source in the sense of software, just open design that is protected by all the usual means, this is not a big issue. There is no problem if people propose 3 different solutions for something, if there is someone there that is prepared to develop the solution, expose it completely and if it meets the billion hour requirement as part of the system, more than one solution being adopted.

It the administator can tell me where to send a 2MB pdf file, I can post a presentation on the Rebreather we propose to use as the basis.

If other people have other RBs to use as the basis, and are prepared to put in the work, fine. We just end up with more than one solution.

Cheers

Alex

***caveseeker7*** · 25th July 2005, 23:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I suggest the name Open Revolution, and it be on the Rebreather World site.

It needs a forum with subsections on:
1. O2 sensing and injection.
2. Auto Shut Off Valves, Auto Bail out, Auto Flush, Auto Dil
3. Gas monitoring: He, CO2, non-galvanic O2 sensing etc
4. Fault tolerant architecture
5. Scrubber config
6. Handset.
7. Ancilliary parts
8. FMECA
9. Simulation results
10. Current Design Spec
A download area.
11. Approvals testing

It the administator can tell me where to send a 2MB pdf file, I can post a presentation on the Rebreather we propose to use as the basis.

Alex, give Stuart and me a day or two to set this up.

decoweenie · 26th July 2005, 03:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

In fact where is Pawel? Has anyone seen him? He doesn't appear to have been on the site since early June.

He is off to Australia Bight making a film about sea lions until Aug 2.

**Steve** · 26th July 2005, 04:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

He is off to Australia Bight making a film about sea lions until Aug 2.

Where is Neale when you need him?

abowie · 26th July 2005, 04:31

Open source rebreather? This will never, ever, EVER work.

Nothing designed by a committee does.

But I'm happy to sit back and watch, if I can ever take my eyes off Steve's new avatar.

koputai · 26th July 2005, 04:37

Play nicely Steve!

This Open Source project is an interesting idea, but there are some issues with it.
Why do all this work just to come up with a hardware store special, when anyone can buy a second hand Draeger and KISS it up for similar money. If it's worth doing, it's worth trying to come up with a better rebreather.
Machining WILL be needed, and each person getting their one-off made is going to be cost prohibitive individually. So, the development of each part will most likely be paid for by one person, then that person could have a batch made, then sell the parts to the rest of the group. It all sounds doable, but may be a headache to keep everything fair.

Jason.

Drmike · 26th July 2005, 05:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by abowie)

Open source rebreather? This will never, ever, EVER work.

Nothing designed by a committee does.

But I'm happy to sit back and watch, if I can ever take my eyes off Steve's new avatar.

Ill bring the popcorn - your grab the cokes

wizbang · 26th July 2005, 06:08

Did I hear the word "homebuild".?

25th July 2005, 21:34	#11 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,906	Quote: (Originally Posted by uri) Guys, This is a topic close to my heart but it always comes back down to a design approach philosophy. I suggest that there is no point in 'inventing' an all singing all dancing expensive rebreather that will never be built or sold but a really cheap simple unapproved entry level performance rebreather that can be upgraded would be a very interesting concept. How cheaply can it be made? Nice to see a really cheap, entry level homebuilders unit, might add some choice to the market. Uri. OK, I'll make a suggestion which goes along with this. Most of us are here because we already have a unit, right? So, what do none of us have, that could be entry level, home-built, but ultimately upgradeable? If we follow Uri's suggestion, I vote that the first "project" is for a simple, low cost bailout rebreather. Basic bits + PO2 measurement. Upgradeable to full ECCR would be my end-state. How does this sit with people? It is one thing that I'd love APD to pick up and run with... __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
(Offline)

25th July 2005, 22:21	#12 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,179	A BOB is a good idea. Personally I am waiting for Pawel to come up with the goodies on the Castoro Abyss. In fact where is Pawel? Has anyone seen him? He doesn't appear to have been on the site since early June. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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25th July 2005, 22:53	#13 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,732	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) OK, I'll make a suggestion which goes along with this. Most of us are here because we already have a unit, right? So, what do none of us have, that could be entry level, home-built, but ultimately upgradeable? If we follow Uri's suggestion, I vote that the first "project" is for a simple, low cost bailout rebreather. Basic bits + PO2 measurement. Upgradeable to full ECCR would be my end-state. How does this sit with people? It is one thing that I'd love APD to pick up and run with... The purpose of the Open Rebreather is one that is completely safe. Doing it in stages starting with perilous designs is no different to any one of the dozens of home rebreather projects on the web, and it not what is proposed. Cost is related primarily to the production tooling that is put in place. The proposed basis for the design has 0.9Kg of plastic (at $6 a kg), titanium for all metal parts ($38 worth), quite a chunky sum for the sensors and about $150 for the electronics. CNC it all, and it will be very expensive. Mould the plastic and it is cheap. The proposal is a Super-CCR, all singing and all dancing, completely public. The information that will be published will be very interesting for a lot of people, including all CCR manufacturers. There are some commercial issues (ie who pays the costs of doing this - we have ideas on that), legal issues (putting together a patent policy - we propose it is just like JEDEC's current policy, and who owns what). There is a pile of white papers to write to put down what the issues are in each main subsystem of the Rebreather, as the real issues are not public at all at the moment. If we adopt the Rebreather I put on this site as the basis, it can be modified with any type of breathing bag or cylinder combo and fits Draeger as well as APD hose fittings. This is better than using a Mk15.5 as the basis as trying to put the latest technology into legacy hardware is, in my experience, something that carries a huge overhead. That particular unit went through trials with quite a few user groups, from club divers to extreme divers, and the opinion was it was pretty near perfect in configuration. It was designed from the outset to be EN14143 compliant, and fail safe and fault tolerant to the billion hour level. Obviously in full exposure, people might find weaknesses or better ways to do things. Fine, we can bring in all ideas after debate. I have done this open stuff before. I setup www.stateye.org (not as pretty as this web site - due to time, but content is very good if you are into that sort of thing) and led the main part of the development. We took it from mystery to in use by all standards committees involved in high speed comms within 18 months. It is used by all major companies involved in high speed comms. I still get emails such as the one last week from a gentleman at Intel saying what a fantastic job we did and how great the tool is. We should do the same with a safe eCCR. I suggest the name Open Revolution, and it be on the Rebreather World site. It needs a forum with subsections on: 1. O2 sensing and injection. I will kick this off with a White Paper explaining how a safe O2 control system works, one that can stand any type or combo of failures, even all sensors developing the ceiling failure mode at once (where the sensor does not produce more than a certain output level, so existing controllers pump in O2 trying to fix the PPO2, until they run out of gas and the user is dead). 2. Auto Shut Off Valves, Auto Bail out, Auto Flush, Auto Dil 3. Gas monitoring: He, CO2, non-galvanic O2 sensing etc 4. Fault tolerant architecture 5. Scrubber config, so it is idiot proof and does not suffer from sudden failure ever 6. Handset. - self tests - pre dive checks - cal - dive mode - deco code (I like the idea of publishing 3, Buhlmann, VPM, and RGBM, in full source so people can write their own and download it) 7. Ancilliary parts Hoses, Breathing bags, water dumps, harnesses, backplate 8. FMECA 9. Simulation results - Code - Firmware - Flow simulation - Prototype verification results - Approvals results All with the models so people can run their own tests and publish their own results 10. Current Design Spec A download area. 11. Approvals testing - Changes needed to standards to protect users - results of standards testing (not just EN14143, but there are about 20 standards an eCCR must meet) Issues are cost and ownership. The former, as I have said, we have ideas on and are talking to a number of companies already. Ownership, as it is not open source in the sense of software, just open design that is protected by all the usual means, this is not a big issue. There is no problem if people propose 3 different solutions for something, if there is someone there that is prepared to develop the solution, expose it completely and if it meets the billion hour requirement as part of the system, more than one solution being adopted. It the administator can tell me where to send a 2MB pdf file, I can post a presentation on the Rebreather we propose to use as the basis. If other people have other RBs to use as the basis, and are prepared to put in the work, fine. We just end up with more than one solution. Cheers Alex
(Offline)

25th July 2005, 23:38	#14 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I suggest the name Open Revolution, and it be on the Rebreather World site. It needs a forum with subsections on: 1. O2 sensing and injection. 2. Auto Shut Off Valves, Auto Bail out, Auto Flush, Auto Dil 3. Gas monitoring: He, CO2, non-galvanic O2 sensing etc 4. Fault tolerant architecture 5. Scrubber config 6. Handset. 7. Ancilliary parts 8. FMECA 9. Simulation results 10. Current Design Spec A download area. 11. Approvals testing It the administator can tell me where to send a 2MB pdf file, I can post a presentation on the Rebreather we propose to use as the basis. Alex, give Stuart and me a day or two to set this up. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"
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26th July 2005, 03:47	#15 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) In fact where is Pawel? Has anyone seen him? He doesn't appear to have been on the site since early June. He is off to Australia Bight making a film about sea lions until Aug 2.
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26th July 2005, 04:20	#16 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,103	Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) He is off to Australia Bight making a film about sea lions until Aug 2. Where is Neale when you need him? __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
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26th July 2005, 04:31	#17 (permalink)
abowie Fighting Girl Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Land of Oz Posts: 573	Open source rebreather? This will never, ever, EVER work. Nothing designed by a committee does. But I'm happy to sit back and watch, if I can ever take my eyes off Steve's new avatar. __________________ Andrew Bowie Rebreather-friendly Buddy
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26th July 2005, 04:37	#18 (permalink)
koputai Subsea Systems Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 328	Play nicely Steve! This Open Source project is an interesting idea, but there are some issues with it. Why do all this work just to come up with a hardware store special, when anyone can buy a second hand Draeger and KISS it up for similar money. If it's worth doing, it's worth trying to come up with a better rebreather. Machining WILL be needed, and each person getting their one-off made is going to be cost prohibitive individually. So, the development of each part will most likely be paid for by one person, then that person could have a batch made, then sell the parts to the rest of the group. It all sounds doable, but may be a headache to keep everything fair. Jason.
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26th July 2005, 05:14	#19 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Quote: (Originally Posted by abowie) Open source rebreather? This will never, ever, EVER work. Nothing designed by a committee does. But I'm happy to sit back and watch, if I can ever take my eyes off Steve's new avatar. Ill bring the popcorn - your grab the cokes __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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26th July 2005, 06:08	#20 (permalink)
wizbang WEB MERMEN Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Vision Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth Australia Posts: 385	Did I hear the word "homebuild".?
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