What is the safest HUD code?

Mark Chase · 15th March 2007, 13:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Wouldn't be the first time you were so sure about something, and turned out to be wrong. Would it, mate ?

Not in the least.. My cock ups are many and varied

ATB

Mark Chase

***schford*** · 15th March 2007, 13:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Not in the least.. My cock ups are many and varied

ATB

Mark Chase

but they help us learn as do everyone elses.

I like learning form others mistakes which is why I also share mine - heheh like the time I bailed out from blowing through dill clearing mask constantly after putting sun cream on - DOH!

O.C.Diver · 15th March 2007, 13:10

I use a KJ tri-color LED on my homebuilt and will soon have the same setup on my KC. To me, all I want out of my HUD is the warm fuzzy feeling of an intermittent green light blinking slowly, telling me everything is alright between frequent checks of the PO2 display. I don't want a more sophisticated system that encourages me to look less frequently at my PO2 display. When I see other than a green light, up comes the PO2 display. I suppose that if my buddy were watching my HUD reflection, this would also be the easiest to interpret also.

Side note: as the result of a screw up I have felt the wrath of the vibrator in KJ DIVA on a dive. A buddy grabbing your fin and tugging violently on it would be less noticeable.

Ted

Mark Chase · 15th March 2007, 13:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

It is already too complicated to understand/remember after reading thru the sequence once, how would someone is expected to remember it when SHTF ? I rather have an idiot light instead...

On top of that, I believe the high/low ranges could be customized (if asked) as well. And also, what happens when the diver decides to change the set-point during the dive ?

HUD isn't a buddy light.

And are you sure now that you were seeing "red" ? Anyway, as said, most people tend to dive SP > 1.0 so you shouldn't be seeing "red" on the bottom anyway.

I don't agree. Red is BAD or DANGER no matter what the reason is its a check display situation. If i see ANY red on Howard HUD ill question him about it during the dive and I will check his hand sets to verify hes understanding the problem and not narked on c02 or just about to pass out or something.

On the Uri HUD you can user define the flash points so If you dive at 1.0 or 1.2 all the time it will flash at 1.35 or 0.7 (as an example) what ever it makes no difference as soon as you start operating outside the parameters you have set for normal diving it gives you and your buddy a warning.

Whilst the Uri design might not represent perfection (no variable set points) it has key advantages over other options.

Red bad Green good is a universally understandable standard.

Flashing red very bad is also pretty obvious.

One pair of LEDs per cell is an excellent idea. I don't like multi colored LEDs which you cant read in well lit conditions. I have to have a shroud over my one so i can see it at all let alone what color it is.

If I do have a problem i don't instinctively know which cell it is. On the Uri design its simple cell 1,2,3 from left to right. No problem.

The URI HUD is also totally potted even the battery is potted. as a result its virtually bomb proof.

IMHO make the on/off a pezo switch and have variable user definable set points on it and it would be the best HUD out there.

That said i haven't tried the Boris and it does sound interesting.

ATB

Mark Chase

Janos · 15th March 2007, 13:30

It's my fault. Sorry for the confusion, but I'm also being sloppy when diving in quarries.

Because they're up-and-downy then although I know my ppO2, if I know there's going to be a change in depth in a minute or so then I'm not too worried if my ppO2 is a bit low. Hence the red flash (ie 0.9) in the video. After reading the Purist's thread I'm going to be less sloppy in future.

Janos

decoweenie · 15th March 2007, 14:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I don't agree. Red is BAD or DANGER no matter what the reason is its a check display situation.

Yes, I believe I have said that... when you are on the bottom where your SP should be fairly steady and not below 1.0 (for most people).

Everyone know the loop PO2 varies on the descent and ascend, yet if you really want to, you could keep the variance above 1.0 if red will freak your jumpy buddy (whom should be familiar with your system to begin with)

Anyway, back to my New Year resolution... I have stated my opinion so we should agree to disagree discussing gears that neither of us have first-hand experience (you on Smithers code - me on Uri HUD)...

Skipbreather · 15th March 2007, 14:26

In 4 pages of comments, folks have danced around a core question without really asking it: Just what information do you want a HUD to convey? “What” needs to be defined before “How”. Stated another way, the blinks are a language, but what is the subject of the conversation?

On one end of the scale is the simple steady red = bad/ steady green = good, however bad and good are defined on that particular system of electronics. The other extreme I’ve seen so far was at DEMA this year where one prototype had I think 12 LED’s in a HUD, with all manner of codes to tell the diver numerous fault modes- which were also being annunciated on a handset screen. The developer clearly had enormous amounts of effort invested in his creation, but when I asked him if he expected a diver who was already having a bad day to remember an obscure but specific series of blinks that he’d never seen before, 2 years out of training, I only got a glazed look.

The science of a machine getting real time information and warnings to the operator has been studied and implemented at its highest level in aircraft. In a modern jet there are hundreds of warning lights, but only two are directly in front of me. One, the master caution, tells me to go look for a problem being annunciated in detail elsewhere in the cockpit. The other one tells me I’m on fire- and I’ve even got a dozen or so various fire lights to check to find out what’s burning. Having information available is good, but I don’t want it ALL directly under my nose.

Is putting more information directly in front of the diver “wrong”? Of course not. The question is, at what point does it cease to be genuinely useful? That’s a question for which each diver will find his own comfort level. I find the Smithers code “just right” for my needs. Once at depth, it becomes part of the background. If it abruptly changes it gets my attention. A good analogy would be how you get used to the steady hum of you car’s engine on a cross country trip. If the noise changes, you tend to notice right away.

My $0.02.

decoweenie · 15th March 2007, 14:42

Thanks Ken.

I wish I have your superior language skill to communicate so elegantly and effectively...

Mark Chase · 15th March 2007, 14:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Anyway, back to my New Year resolution... I have stated my opinion so we should agree to disagree discussing gears that neither of us have first-hand experience (you on Smithers code - me on Uri HUD)...

I thaught i had?

Dosent the Hammer Head HUD on PP02 Mode use Smithers code?

Or is this my second blatent error of the day

ATB

Mark Chase

***jradomski*** · 15th March 2007, 15:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I thaught i had?

Dosent the Hammer Head HUD on PP02 Mode use Smithers code?

Or is this my second blatent error of the day

ATB

Mark Chase

The HH uses a slightly modified Smithers code (in po2 mode) than the original.. In the original implementation if the po2 was above 1.8 or below .19 then the LED was held either Green or red, on the current version it flashes both red and green rapidly..

15th March 2007, 13:06	#31 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,695	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Wouldn't be the first time you were so sure about something, and turned out to be wrong. Would it, mate ? Not in the least.. My cock ups are many and varied ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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15th March 2007, 13:10	#32 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Not in the least.. My cock ups are many and varied ATB Mark Chase but they help us learn as do everyone elses. I like learning form others mistakes which is why I also share mine - heheh like the time I bailed out from blowing through dill clearing mask constantly after putting sun cream on - DOH! __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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15th March 2007, 13:10	#33 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 218	Re: What is the safest HUD code? I use a KJ tri-color LED on my homebuilt and will soon have the same setup on my KC. To me, all I want out of my HUD is the warm fuzzy feeling of an intermittent green light blinking slowly, telling me everything is alright between frequent checks of the PO2 display. I don't want a more sophisticated system that encourages me to look less frequently at my PO2 display. When I see other than a green light, up comes the PO2 display. I suppose that if my buddy were watching my HUD reflection, this would also be the easiest to interpret also. Side note: as the result of a screw up I have felt the wrath of the vibrator in KJ DIVA on a dive. A buddy grabbing your fin and tugging violently on it would be less noticeable. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
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15th March 2007, 13:19	#34 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,695	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) It is already too complicated to understand/remember after reading thru the sequence once, how would someone is expected to remember it when SHTF ? I rather have an idiot light instead... On top of that, I believe the high/low ranges could be customized (if asked) as well. And also, what happens when the diver decides to change the set-point during the dive ? HUD isn't a buddy light. And are you sure now that you were seeing "red" ? Anyway, as said, most people tend to dive SP > 1.0 so you shouldn't be seeing "red" on the bottom anyway. I don't agree. Red is BAD or DANGER no matter what the reason is its a check display situation. If i see ANY red on Howard HUD ill question him about it during the dive and I will check his hand sets to verify hes understanding the problem and not narked on c02 or just about to pass out or something. On the Uri HUD you can user define the flash points so If you dive at 1.0 or 1.2 all the time it will flash at 1.35 or 0.7 (as an example) what ever it makes no difference as soon as you start operating outside the parameters you have set for normal diving it gives you and your buddy a warning. Whilst the Uri design might not represent perfection (no variable set points) it has key advantages over other options. Red bad Green good is a universally understandable standard. Flashing red very bad is also pretty obvious. One pair of LEDs per cell is an excellent idea. I don't like multi colored LEDs which you cant read in well lit conditions. I have to have a shroud over my one so i can see it at all let alone what color it is. If I do have a problem i don't instinctively know which cell it is. On the Uri design its simple cell 1,2,3 from left to right. No problem. The URI HUD is also totally potted even the battery is potted. as a result its virtually bomb proof. IMHO make the on/off a pezo switch and have variable user definable set points on it and it would be the best HUD out there. That said i haven't tried the Boris and it does sound interesting. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System Last edited by Mark Chase : 15th March 2007 at 13:21.
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15th March 2007, 13:30	#35 (permalink)
Janos "Two Sheds" Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: East Surrey Posts: 600	Re: What is the safest HUD code? It's my fault. Sorry for the confusion, but I'm also being sloppy when diving in quarries. Because they're up-and-downy then although I know my ppO2, if I know there's going to be a change in depth in a minute or so then I'm not too worried if my ppO2 is a bit low. Hence the red flash (ie 0.9) in the video. After reading the Purist's thread I'm going to be less sloppy in future. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed
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15th March 2007, 14:21	#36 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I don't agree. Red is BAD or DANGER no matter what the reason is its a check display situation. Yes, I believe I have said that... when you are on the bottom where your SP should be fairly steady and not below 1.0 (for most people). Everyone know the loop PO2 varies on the descent and ascend, yet if you really want to, you could keep the variance above 1.0 if red will freak your jumpy buddy (whom should be familiar with your system to begin with) Anyway, back to my New Year resolution... I have stated my opinion so we should agree to disagree discussing gears that neither of us have first-hand experience (you on Smithers code - me on Uri HUD)... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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15th March 2007, 14:26	#37 (permalink)
Skipbreather Reads the fine print Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA Posts: 555	Re: What is the safest HUD code? In 4 pages of comments, folks have danced around a core question without really asking it: Just what information do you want a HUD to convey? “What” needs to be defined before “How”. Stated another way, the blinks are a language, but what is the subject of the conversation? On one end of the scale is the simple steady red = bad/ steady green = good, however bad and good are defined on that particular system of electronics. The other extreme I’ve seen so far was at DEMA this year where one prototype had I think 12 LED’s in a HUD, with all manner of codes to tell the diver numerous fault modes- which were also being annunciated on a handset screen. The developer clearly had enormous amounts of effort invested in his creation, but when I asked him if he expected a diver who was already having a bad day to remember an obscure but specific series of blinks that he’d never seen before, 2 years out of training, I only got a glazed look. The science of a machine getting real time information and warnings to the operator has been studied and implemented at its highest level in aircraft. In a modern jet there are hundreds of warning lights, but only two are directly in front of me. One, the master caution, tells me to go look for a problem being annunciated in detail elsewhere in the cockpit. The other one tells me I’m on fire- and I’ve even got a dozen or so various fire lights to check to find out what’s burning. Having information available is good, but I don’t want it ALL directly under my nose. Is putting more information directly in front of the diver “wrong”? Of course not. The question is, at what point does it cease to be genuinely useful? That’s a question for which each diver will find his own comfort level. I find the Smithers code “just right” for my needs. Once at depth, it becomes part of the background. If it abruptly changes it gets my attention. A good analogy would be how you get used to the steady hum of you car’s engine on a cross country trip. If the noise changes, you tend to notice right away. My $0.02. __________________ "Entropy RULES! Enjoy the interim."
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15th March 2007, 14:42	#38 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Thanks Ken. I wish I have your superior language skill to communicate so elegantly and effectively... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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15th March 2007, 14:56	#39 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,695	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Anyway, back to my New Year resolution... I have stated my opinion so we should agree to disagree discussing gears that neither of us have first-hand experience (you on Smithers code - me on Uri HUD)... I thaught i had? Dosent the Hammer Head HUD on PP02 Mode use Smithers code? Or is this my second blatent error of the day ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

15th March 2007, 15:19	#40 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,000	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I thaught i had? Dosent the Hammer Head HUD on PP02 Mode use Smithers code? Or is this my second blatent error of the day ATB Mark Chase The HH uses a slightly modified Smithers code (in po2 mode) than the original.. In the original implementation if the po2 was above 1.8 or below .19 then the LED was held either Green or red, on the current version it flashes both red and green rapidly.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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