What is the safest HUD code?

AD_ward9 · 15th March 2007, 10:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Where does it say that? I am not saying it is a bad thing but I don't see a mention of it in the standard any where.

EN14143:2003
"5.9 Safety devices
5.9.1 General
All safety devices that give a visual indication to the diver shall be capable of being read by a person with normal (or appropriately corrected) visual acuity under the visibility conditions specified in the information supplied by the manufacturer. Safety devices shall provide an appropriate indication for colour blind people."

Alex

Sutty · 15th March 2007, 10:53

I have one of Uri's HUDs on my Kiss too, but with a different signal sequence. Solid green is high setpoint an green flash or flicker means slightly low or high respectively red+green signals the same but further away from setpoint, just red=seriously out. On descent there are red signals but as long as there are green too I'm OK ie PO2>0.6. There is a positional difference between red & green too which would be a help if colour blind.

Full sequence is:
> 1.60 Red solid with off flicker
1.45 – 1.60 Green and Red solid with off flicker
1.35 – 1.45 Green solid with off flicker
1.22 – 1.35 Green solid
1.10 – 1.22 Green slow flash
0.60 – 1.10 Red & Green slow flash together
0.30 – 0.60 Red slow flash
0.05 – 0.30 Red fast flash
PO2 < 0.05 All off

Article about it in the library.

Neil

Padowan · 15th March 2007, 11:09

On the Shearwater, the other way to think about it is this:

The fewer flashes you see (and therefore the more time there is NO light) the closer you are to 1.0. If you see lots of flashes in any colour, then you've drifted a long way away from 1.0. Also once you hit 5 flashes per LED (ie either 0.5bar if flashes are red, or 1.5 if flashes are green) then the LED intensity increases, and you are really aware of an increasing problem.

You don't have to count the lights, you get a very good feeling for the PPO2 be seeing the time that there lights are out too. I only count the flashes when I want a more accurate diagnosis than "it'll certainly sustain life"

I like the ability to see if a cell drifts from the others, it's amazingly obvious when this happens.

***jradomski*** · 15th March 2007, 11:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

It is a requirement to consider it, in EN14143. The PPO2 indicator has to cater for colour blind divers. We handle that by supplementing the display with voice annunciation, others use vibrating mouthpieces. Just red/green colours on their own would not comply with EN14143 IMHO.

We use Blue for CO2 monitor. Perhaps changing to a purple LED instead of red, and showing fault conditions on a RED LED. Or are we getting too complex?

Alex

No of your rebreather designs would be allowed to be sold (without licensing)in the US, A vibrating mouthpiece as an alarm indicator would violate KJ's patent..

AD_ward9 · 15th March 2007, 11:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

No of your rebreather designs would be allowed to be sold (without licensing)in the US, A vibrating mouthpiece as an alarm indicator would violate KJ's patent..

I think you misread me - the grammar I used could have been clearer. We do not use a vibrating mouthpiece: we use a speaker with voice annunciation. By reference to others I meant KJ.

Alex

***jradomski*** · 15th March 2007, 11:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I think you misread me - the grammar I used could have been clearer. We do not use a vibrating mouthpiece: we use a speaker with voice annunciation. By reference to others I meant KJ.

Alex

Ok thanks for clearing that up..

**RichClark** · 15th March 2007, 12:31

I have to admit, the vibrating alarm in KJ's DIVA is a fantastic idea. I wish it was available with the Shearwater.

The vibration may be just enough to prompt a diver to respond to the information he's being presented with.

Rich

RobPot · 15th March 2007, 12:32

Isn't the 'safest' one the one that the user understands, has practised and trained with, and is comfortable that he/she can process the information from it if it all goes a bit pear-shaped?

**RichClark** · 15th March 2007, 12:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by RobPot)

Isn't the 'safest' one the one that the user understands, has practised and trained with, and is comfortable that he/she can process the information from it if it all goes a bit pear-shaped?

Bingo - I would also add, its also the one that your buddy/regular dive partners understand. I know, I know it's not a buddy light... but the reflection in the mask is a useful tool.

Rich

**PhilSiswick** · 15th March 2007, 12:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by RobPot)

Isn't the 'safest' one the one that the user understands, has practised and trained with, and is comfortable that he/she can process the information from it if it all goes a bit pear-shaped?

Surely, there is an optimal HUD that communicates the maximum information, grabs a user's attention when necessary, while not providing too much information?

I agree that going with what you know is safest in the short-term, but without discussing experiences, how are we ever going to come up with a better approach?

FWIW - I'm not yet really using my Vision HUD at all. True, I would react pretty quickly if I saw anything go red, but I find that I need to look at my handset to understand what is really happening. Only time will improve on that, I suspect.

Cheers,

15th March 2007, 10:49	#21 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,854	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Where does it say that? I am not saying it is a bad thing but I don't see a mention of it in the standard any where. EN14143:2003 "5.9 Safety devices 5.9.1 General All safety devices that give a visual indication to the diver shall be capable of being read by a person with normal (or appropriately corrected) visual acuity under the visibility conditions specified in the information supplied by the manufacturer. Safety devices shall provide an appropriate indication for colour blind people." Alex
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15th March 2007, 10:53	#22 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 800	Re: What is the safest HUD code? I have one of Uri's HUDs on my Kiss too, but with a different signal sequence. Solid green is high setpoint an green flash or flicker means slightly low or high respectively red+green signals the same but further away from setpoint, just red=seriously out. On descent there are red signals but as long as there are green too I'm OK ie PO2>0.6. There is a positional difference between red & green too which would be a help if colour blind. Full sequence is: > 1.60 Red solid with off flicker 1.45 – 1.60 Green and Red solid with off flicker 1.35 – 1.45 Green solid with off flicker 1.22 – 1.35 Green solid 1.10 – 1.22 Green slow flash 0.60 – 1.10 Red & Green slow flash together 0.30 – 0.60 Red slow flash 0.05 – 0.30 Red fast flash PO2 < 0.05 All off Article about it in the library. Neil __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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15th March 2007, 11:09	#23 (permalink)
Padowan Proper Boffin Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kent, UK. Posts: 518	Re: What is the safest HUD code? On the Shearwater, the other way to think about it is this: The fewer flashes you see (and therefore the more time there is NO light) the closer you are to 1.0. If you see lots of flashes in any colour, then you've drifted a long way away from 1.0. Also once you hit 5 flashes per LED (ie either 0.5bar if flashes are red, or 1.5 if flashes are green) then the LED intensity increases, and you are really aware of an increasing problem. You don't have to count the lights, you get a very good feeling for the PPO2 be seeing the time that there lights are out too. I only count the flashes when I want a more accurate diagnosis than "it'll certainly sustain life" I like the ability to see if a cell drifts from the others, it's amazingly obvious when this happens. __________________ Padowan The future's bright, the future's Yellow .....for now padowan.net - Latest Video: Scapa Flow Rebreather Diving
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15th March 2007, 11:23	#24 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,995	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) It is a requirement to consider it, in EN14143. The PPO2 indicator has to cater for colour blind divers. We handle that by supplementing the display with voice annunciation, others use vibrating mouthpieces. Just red/green colours on their own would not comply with EN14143 IMHO. We use Blue for CO2 monitor. Perhaps changing to a purple LED instead of red, and showing fault conditions on a RED LED. Or are we getting too complex? Alex No of your rebreather designs would be allowed to be sold (without licensing)in the US, A vibrating mouthpiece as an alarm indicator would violate KJ's patent.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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15th March 2007, 11:37	#25 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,854	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) No of your rebreather designs would be allowed to be sold (without licensing)in the US, A vibrating mouthpiece as an alarm indicator would violate KJ's patent.. I think you misread me - the grammar I used could have been clearer. We do not use a vibrating mouthpiece: we use a speaker with voice annunciation. By reference to others I meant KJ. Alex
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15th March 2007, 11:40	#26 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,995	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I think you misread me - the grammar I used could have been clearer. We do not use a vibrating mouthpiece: we use a speaker with voice annunciation. By reference to others I meant KJ. Alex Ok thanks for clearing that up.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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15th March 2007, 12:31	#27 (permalink)
RichClark Classic KISS No. 226 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hove, UK Posts: 779	Re: What is the safest HUD code? I have to admit, the vibrating alarm in KJ's DIVA is a fantastic idea. I wish it was available with the Shearwater. The vibration may be just enough to prompt a diver to respond to the information he's being presented with. Rich __________________ The more I learn about women, the more I want to go diving... just don't tell my wife I said that To taste something a little different, try http://www.thechillikitchen.co.uk
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15th March 2007, 12:32	#28 (permalink)
RobPot Rebreather World Writer Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Portishead - Gateway to the South West Posts: 180	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Isn't the 'safest' one the one that the user understands, has practised and trained with, and is comfortable that he/she can process the information from it if it all goes a bit pear-shaped? Last edited by RobPot : 15th March 2007 at 12:36. Reason: Oops - not 'best' - 'safest'!
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15th March 2007, 12:38	#29 (permalink)
RichClark Classic KISS No. 226 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hove, UK Posts: 779	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by RobPot) Isn't the 'safest' one the one that the user understands, has practised and trained with, and is comfortable that he/she can process the information from it if it all goes a bit pear-shaped? Bingo - I would also add, its also the one that your buddy/regular dive partners understand. I know, I know it's not a buddy light... but the reflection in the mask is a useful tool. Rich __________________ The more I learn about women, the more I want to go diving... just don't tell my wife I said that To taste something a little different, try http://www.thechillikitchen.co.uk
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15th March 2007, 12:46	#30 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 988	Re: What is the safest HUD code? Quote: (Originally Posted by RobPot) Isn't the 'safest' one the one that the user understands, has practised and trained with, and is comfortable that he/she can process the information from it if it all goes a bit pear-shaped? Surely, there is an optimal HUD that communicates the maximum information, grabs a user's attention when necessary, while not providing too much information? I agree that going with what you know is safest in the short-term, but without discussing experiences, how are we ever going to come up with a better approach? FWIW - I'm not yet really using my Vision HUD at all. True, I would react pretty quickly if I saw anything go red, but I find that I need to look at my handset to understand what is really happening. Only time will improve on that, I suspect. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
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