Cave Associations Membership Poll

**trob09** · 9th December 2006, 12:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe)

I think the agency role has been confused over the years. They were originally intended to promote cave conservation and teach and develop methods of safe cave diving. IMO, they have evolved into commercial training agencies whose broad scope presents a conflict of interest. The training now belongs in the private sector. The role of the agencies should be to stand watch dog over what the private sector is doing and lending their collective expertise to the development of safer methodology.

I agree with this 100%. I believe the focus of the CDS and NACD should be on cave access and the watchdog role you outline. It became very clear to me that - as a non resident of Florida - it would be impossible for me to make that opinion heard.

As such, I decided to not join an organization that discouraged my participation.

Genesis · 9th December 2006, 16:14

Yep.

I refused to join the NACD as they only permit voting if you've passed full cave - which means you have to agree with their worldview before you can vote! That's a nice way to make sure nothing ever changes... no thanks. Never mind the raw nepotism and effective "ownership" of the organization by one person. IMHO the NACD is a membership organization in name only.

I was a member of the NSS/CDS until the fiasco with their election where virtually the entire standing slate withdrew a month before balllots were due, essentially making it a "void" election. All this was over political (and some internal business) matters that IMHO reeked of intentional obfuscation and perhaps even misuse of section funds.

I was approached with the line "if you don't like it run for the board"; they, of course, make that virtually impossible as the section refuses to use technology to allow distant board meetings and travel to High Springs is mandatory to attend the meetings - not realistic when you're a single parent of a 10 year old and the site is six hours drive time off. They don't seem to care (or notice) that there are caves in places other than High Springs....

The not-so-amusing part of this is that there are sane voices on the board of the NSS/CDS. You just never hear them. Again - politics. Debate never happens externally where people can hear and contribute to it, which is a major problem. Both organizations have "gag orders" prohibiting the decision makers from voicing their opinion and entertaining public debate.

Yet how do you make sound policy without public debate?

If your goal is to be an insular organization, then I guess it works. But theirs is much more lofty.

While the dues are not large, I want to support organizations that believe as I do, or at least which will engage in a public debate on the principlies and positions they advocate.

dgschott · 9th December 2006, 20:37

Hi - I was just curious who on Rebreather World was a member of one or the other an who wasn't.... I thought the results would be insteresting, and yes - I Have many opinions about both of those agencies and have shared many in my last post on training and standards, but it's really has nothing to do with good or bad opinions...

Quote: (Originally Posted by cedricverdier)

Hi,

Would it be possible to know the goal of this poll?

Do you have any concern about one or both associations?
Do you want to share your opinion about these associations?

Cheers

***sadave*** · 10th December 2006, 09:22

You forgot the CDAA...

lizardland · 10th December 2006, 21:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by AMW)

CDG founded 1946

Andrew

And me! Well, once I pay this year's subs

I've got a NACD cert for diving in less civilized parts of the world that haven't heard of the CDG

Cheers,

Stuart

onetime · 11th December 2006, 13:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat)

2. I am a former instructor-member of the NACD. I resigned the beginning of November for a number of reasons- which I'll be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested.

I'm interested. Not sure if you're willing to post publically but a PM would be cool too.

Also wonder if you have any insight into the resignation of my Intro instructor Ross Noble. Heard through the grapevine that it was "politics" but no details.

Duncan Price · 12th December 2006, 12:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by AMW)

CDG founded 1946

Ditto - and they were diving closed circuit then as well. Open circuit came in during the '60's.

Edit: I was a member of NSS-CDS when I lived in the US.

PS. Only Qualified CDG divers can vote on matters pertaining to Membership/Qualification.

Celia_E · 13th December 2006, 23:23

NSS-CDS, family membership since 1997.

Dive safe,

Celia

dive2dive2000 · 14th December 2006, 00:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat)

OK, this one is dificult, as I fall into multiple categories.

1. I am a non- instructor member of the NSS-CDS (as I am not a CDS instructor).

2. I am a former instructor-member of the NACD. I resigned the beginning of November for a number of reasons- which I'll be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested.

3. I am a Cave Diving instructor for another entity (NAUI).

Now I'm off to teach Cave Diving.... in sub freezing temps grrrrrrr.

Come on, Heather sub freezing

View Poll Results: Cave Membership Associations Poll
Are you a non-instructor member of the NSS-CDS?	8	13.33%
Are you a non-instructor member of the NACD?	4	6.67%
Are you a non-instructor member of the NSS-CDD & NACD?	4	6.67%
Are you an instructor & member of the NSS-CDS?	0	0%
Are you an instructor & member of the NACD?	1	1.67%
Are you an instructor member of the NSS-CDS & NACD?	1	1.67%
Were you a member of the NSS-CDS & dropped your membership?	5	8.33%
Were you a member of the NACD & dropped your membership?	3	5.00%
Cave Diver, but never a member of any association	34	56.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

9th December 2006, 12:36	#11 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 699	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe) I think the agency role has been confused over the years. They were originally intended to promote cave conservation and teach and develop methods of safe cave diving. IMO, they have evolved into commercial training agencies whose broad scope presents a conflict of interest. The training now belongs in the private sector. The role of the agencies should be to stand watch dog over what the private sector is doing and lending their collective expertise to the development of safer methodology. I agree with this 100%. I believe the focus of the CDS and NACD should be on cave access and the watchdog role you outline. It became very clear to me that - as a non resident of Florida - it would be impossible for me to make that opinion heard. As such, I decided to not join an organization that discouraged my participation.
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 16:14	#12 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll Yep. I refused to join the NACD as they only permit voting if you've passed full cave - which means you have to agree with their worldview before you can vote! That's a nice way to make sure nothing ever changes... no thanks. Never mind the raw nepotism and effective "ownership" of the organization by one person. IMHO the NACD is a membership organization in name only. I was a member of the NSS/CDS until the fiasco with their election where virtually the entire standing slate withdrew a month before balllots were due, essentially making it a "void" election. All this was over political (and some internal business) matters that IMHO reeked of intentional obfuscation and perhaps even misuse of section funds. I was approached with the line "if you don't like it run for the board"; they, of course, make that virtually impossible as the section refuses to use technology to allow distant board meetings and travel to High Springs is mandatory to attend the meetings - not realistic when you're a single parent of a 10 year old and the site is six hours drive time off. They don't seem to care (or notice) that there are caves in places other than High Springs.... The not-so-amusing part of this is that there are sane voices on the board of the NSS/CDS. You just never hear them. Again - politics. Debate never happens externally where people can hear and contribute to it, which is a major problem. Both organizations have "gag orders" prohibiting the decision makers from voicing their opinion and entertaining public debate. Yet how do you make sound policy without public debate? If your goal is to be an insular organization, then I guess it works. But theirs is much more lofty. While the dues are not large, I want to support organizations that believe as I do, or at least which will engage in a public debate on the principlies and positions they advocate. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
(Offline)

9th December 2006, 20:37	#13 (permalink)
dgschott Liquid Productions, LLC Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Aston, PA Posts: 115	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll Hi - I was just curious who on Rebreather World was a member of one or the other an who wasn't.... I thought the results would be insteresting, and yes - I Have many opinions about both of those agencies and have shared many in my last post on training and standards, but it's really has nothing to do with good or bad opinions... Quote: (Originally Posted by cedricverdier) Hi, Would it be possible to know the goal of this poll? Do you have any concern about one or both associations? Do you want to share your opinion about these associations? Cheers __________________ David Schott Liquid Productions, LLC
(Offline)

10th December 2006, 09:22	#14 (permalink)
*sadave* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brisbane, Queensland Posts: 1,034	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll You forgot the CDAA... __________________ Wave!
(Offline)

10th December 2006, 21:08	#15 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,256	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll Quote: (Originally Posted by AMW) CDG founded 1946 Andrew And me! Well, once I pay this year's subs I've got a NACD cert for diving in less civilized parts of the world that haven't heard of the CDG Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
(Offline)

11th December 2006, 13:41	#16 (permalink)
onetime Classic KISSer #138 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: US, NJ Posts: 673	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat) 2. I am a former instructor-member of the NACD. I resigned the beginning of November for a number of reasons- which I'll be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested. I'm interested. Not sure if you're willing to post publically but a PM would be cool too. Also wonder if you have any insight into the resignation of my Intro instructor Ross Noble. Heard through the grapevine that it was "politics" but no details.
(Online)

12th December 2006, 12:34	#17 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 336	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll Quote: (Originally Posted by AMW) CDG founded 1946 Ditto - and they were diving closed circuit then as well. Open circuit came in during the '60's. Edit: I was a member of NSS-CDS when I lived in the US. PS. Only Qualified CDG divers can vote on matters pertaining to Membership/Qualification. Last edited by Duncan Price : 12th December 2006 at 12:37.
(Offline)

13th December 2006, 23:23	#18 (permalink)
Celia_E Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: back from paradise... Posts: 113	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll NSS-CDS, family membership since 1997. Dive safe, Celia
(Online)

14th December 2006, 00:59	#19 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Re: Cave Associations Membership Poll Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat) OK, this one is dificult, as I fall into multiple categories. 1. I am a non- instructor member of the NSS-CDS (as I am not a CDS instructor). 2. I am a former instructor-member of the NACD. I resigned the beginning of November for a number of reasons- which I'll be happy to elaborate if anyone is interested. 3. I am a Cave Diving instructor for another entity (NAUI). Now I'm off to teach Cave Diving.... in sub freezing temps grrrrrrr. Come on, Heather sub freezing __________________ Safe Diving, Martin "but what's the fun of getting what you need, instead of what you want?"
(Offline)

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