Article: Rebreathers and cave diving

cedricverdier · 3rd October 2006, 04:56

Hi all,

I just posted an article about CCRs and cave diving: why are they a good tool for cave exploration and what are their limits.

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...html#post70397

(will I get some "green" for this one??)

I'm interested to know who are the Rebreather World members who use a CCR for cave diving, which CCR and why?

Cheers

jhaaja · 3rd October 2006, 05:11

Nice article Cedric, thanks!

I use my YBOD for cave diving here in Finland. We don`t have any natural caves but only man made holes

I have a BOV fitted with Swagelok QC6 connectors ro a stage. I use the breather because I like to have good gas all the time and don`t like the noice of OC gear. Mostly my cave dives are around 30-60m. We have some deeper tunnels also that we are starting to dive. The problem here is that the water is so cold all the time, it is +4 Celsius when you go deeper than 15m

JH
Finland

**Steve** · 3rd October 2006, 06:09

Hi Cedric,

You touched on a huge benefit, that being weight savings. Our recent trip to Northern Western Australia quite simply would have been near impossible on OC. Exploring and mapping mainly in water 40m-110m for up to 7 hours at a time, for 6 divers for about 10 days, would have needed a fleet of helicopters to bring the gas in and who can afford that?. Rebreathers allowed us to achieve a lot of exploration that would have been a nightmare on OC.

Nice work

York · 3rd October 2006, 12:04

C,
nice summary, neutral wording, well done (green).
I was thinking of other advantages and disadvantages.
rebreathers can be more bulky and hence restrict access to some sites, but Bret Hemphil (spelling?) on his modified KISS demonstrated that this does not need to be the case (he sidemounts a lot).

I was wondering if there could be further distinctions between units? OK, beware of unit-bashing (which I really don't want to encourage).

sideline: I'm interested to know who are the Rebreather World members who use a CCR for cave diving, which CCR and why? I dive a Meg, lived in Florida for several years (now in exile in the UK) and enjoyed the advantage a rebreather has over conventional SCUBA. Downside: suddenly all systems appear rather small. My recommendation: If you want to dream about ever reaching the end of the line (instead of actually doing it), don't go rebreather :-)
The Meg is fairly streamlined (I like the tighter caves, was sidemounting a bit before), allows easy modification should I want one, and takes a beating without much damage.
/sideline

I just returned from a (long overdue) vacation in Florida, staying 4 weeks with Gregg Stanton (wakulla diving). He has a very different approach than what else I have seen out ther, and the tries to have every (major) CCR available for users to look at, compare and if desired test-dive in the pool. It does take the mystery out of a lot of units when you see and dive them side by side. Without, people tend to drool over whatever they think/were told/heard someone important say what the best/coolest/latest gismo is. I think when I bought mine I based my decision on similar aspects (guilty as charged), but after the comparison I think I would make the same decision again. I suppose that horse has been beaten enough?

Things learned:
- every system has unique advantages and disadvantages
- every system has problems sometimes
- the devil is, as usual in the detail
- the concepts of avoiding the devil are very different: from simplicity to computer-does-everything, and about every possibility in between
- OTS-CL still gives you best breathing results
- except for one unit, all the commercially available systems use some form of electronics (even if only for display) that was more or less designed over a decade ago and received little change since then - and, might I suggest, not because it is already perfect (IMHO)
- Training is as important to the usage as the system itself. There seem to be 50% commonalities between systems, and 50% uniqueness required in training. I hear more and more that training overall seems very poor, with lots of people receiving vertification without having the required knowledge (I am not bashing here as I did not mention any specific agencies, just repeating the "talk on the street")
- Open-water requirements for a rebreather are probably very much different than cave-requirements? (up for discussion) If the only type of diving was non-cave, I would probably make a different decision for rebreather puchase.

I'm sure there were more lessons learned, but I can't remember them at the moment, and lunch break is over

- Joerg

dive2dive2000 · 3rd October 2006, 14:02

Very nice article... Thanks for taking the time to share.

Joe · 3rd October 2006, 16:08

Nice article.

I'm using a Meg because I felt it was the unit that best suited my needs.

The reasons I use it for cave diving are several.

First, I do not think it is a good idea to switch back and forth OC to CC. You need to maintain, perfect and refine a skill set that allows you to continuously improve.....always...the training mentality should never end.

Second is that I believe it enhances safety for the reasons you already mentioned.

Third is that it permits greater access due to its ease of portability. Obviously, this is somewhat limited by the need for bailout gasses but, nonetheless, it is still far easier to transport than OC.

There was one aspect of this which your article did not mention and that is discipline. I believe discipline is the most important attribute a diver can have, especially a CCR diver in a cave where it is soooo easy to successfully exceed your limits and get away with it so often that is seems safe to do....until the day something goes wrong, which could take years to happen.

While experience is a very important asset to have I think discipline is even more important.

Joe

Quote: (Originally Posted by cedricverdier)

Hi all,

I just posted an article about CCRs and cave diving: why are they a good tool for cave exploration and what are their limits.

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...html#post70397

(will I get some "green" for this one??)

I'm interested to know who are the Rebreather World members who use a CCR for cave diving, which CCR and why?

Cheers

cedricverdier · 3rd October 2006, 22:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by York)

C,

I'm sure there were more lessons learned, but I can't remember them at the moment, and lunch break is over

- Joerg

Hi Joerg,

Thanks for the comments. As soon as you have another lunch break, feel free to add more comments!

Cheers

RonMicjan · 4th October 2006, 01:33

Thanks cedric, good info to retain. Dave (wedivebc), MikeP and I are heading to Mexico in january to do full CCR Cave with Matt at protec, I am looking forward to an excellent course and learning the ins and (especially) the outs of cave diving on CCR. thanks again for taking the time to do the write up.

Mixaddict · 4th October 2006, 01:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe)

There was one aspect of this which your article did not mention and that is discipline. I believe discipline is the most important attribute a diver can have, especially a CCR diver in a cave where it is soooo easy to successfully exceed your limits and get away with it so often that is seems safe to do....until the day something goes wrong, which could take years to happen.

While experience is a very important asset to have I think discipline is even more important.

Joe

Joe,

I'm a YBOD diver in open water and an avid OC diver in caves. I have not felt quite comfortable as of yet to go for the CCR in caves. Hopefully, this year will see me try my YBOD in the Florida caves. I have thought long and hard for some time about the same thing in quotes above. It is so easy to become complacent regarding distance with a CCR in a cave. I have read several times on this board, people claiming that cave diving on CCR is no big deal, but for me, it is a huge leap going from OC to CCR in a cave. In some ways, I wonder if the people who have gone directly to Cave CCR training and bypassing OC Cave training, really develope an appreciation for the extreme nature of this type of diving.

As you and Cedric have mentioned, there are certainly a lot of benefits to CCR Cave diving, I just hope that people have sufficient respect for the real challenges. I look forward to crossing over to this type of cave exploration soon.

Regards,
Randy

silent running · 4th October 2006, 02:00

Hi Cedric, thanks for the excellent article. You summed up all the benefits and concerns that come with CCR cave diving very well. And I agree, a HUD is crucial, as it is in all CCR diving, IMHO.

The flexability in time management and range of exploration is really the biggest adavntage of CCR cave diving. Very good point about the dil mix having a much bigger range for exploration/unexpected depth changes than having to anticipate/guess for an OC mix. -Andy

3rd October 2006, 04:56	#1 (permalink)
cedricverdier S21 M.I.B. Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Worldwide! Posts: 497	Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Hi all, I just posted an article about CCRs and cave diving: why are they a good tool for cave exploration and what are their limits. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...html#post70397 (will I get some "green" for this one??) I'm interested to know who are the Rebreather World members who use a CCR for cave diving, which CCR and why? Cheers __________________ Cedric Verdier PADI Course Director, ANDI-IANTD-PSAI-TDI-DSAT-DAN-NAUI-CMAS Instructor Trainer Trimix (CCR and OC) and Cave Diving Instructor Trainer www.CedricVerdier.com DIRrebreather member
(Offline)

3rd October 2006, 05:11	#2 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 884	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Nice article Cedric, thanks! I use my YBOD for cave diving here in Finland. We don`t have any natural caves but only man made holes I have a BOV fitted with Swagelok QC6 connectors ro a stage. I use the breather because I like to have good gas all the time and don`t like the noice of OC gear. Mostly my cave dives are around 30-60m. We have some deeper tunnels also that we are starting to dive. The problem here is that the water is so cold all the time, it is +4 Celsius when you go deeper than 15m JH Finland
(Offline)

3rd October 2006, 06:09	#3 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,117	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Hi Cedric, You touched on a huge benefit, that being weight savings. Our recent trip to Northern Western Australia quite simply would have been near impossible on OC. Exploring and mapping mainly in water 40m-110m for up to 7 hours at a time, for 6 divers for about 10 days, would have needed a fleet of helicopters to bring the gas in and who can afford that?. Rebreathers allowed us to achieve a lot of exploration that would have been a nightmare on OC. Nice work __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
(Offline)

3rd October 2006, 12:04	#4 (permalink)
York probubbly not Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 118	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving C, nice summary, neutral wording, well done (green). I was thinking of other advantages and disadvantages. rebreathers can be more bulky and hence restrict access to some sites, but Bret Hemphil (spelling?) on his modified KISS demonstrated that this does not need to be the case (he sidemounts a lot). I was wondering if there could be further distinctions between units? OK, beware of unit-bashing (which I really don't want to encourage). sideline: I'm interested to know who are the Rebreather World members who use a CCR for cave diving, which CCR and why? I dive a Meg, lived in Florida for several years (now in exile in the UK) and enjoyed the advantage a rebreather has over conventional SCUBA. Downside: suddenly all systems appear rather small. My recommendation: If you want to dream about ever reaching the end of the line (instead of actually doing it), don't go rebreather :-) The Meg is fairly streamlined (I like the tighter caves, was sidemounting a bit before), allows easy modification should I want one, and takes a beating without much damage. /sideline I just returned from a (long overdue) vacation in Florida, staying 4 weeks with Gregg Stanton (wakulla diving). He has a very different approach than what else I have seen out ther, and the tries to have every (major) CCR available for users to look at, compare and if desired test-dive in the pool. It does take the mystery out of a lot of units when you see and dive them side by side. Without, people tend to drool over whatever they think/were told/heard someone important say what the best/coolest/latest gismo is. I think when I bought mine I based my decision on similar aspects (guilty as charged), but after the comparison I think I would make the same decision again. I suppose that horse has been beaten enough? Things learned: - every system has unique advantages and disadvantages - every system has problems sometimes - the devil is, as usual in the detail - the concepts of avoiding the devil are very different: from simplicity to computer-does-everything, and about every possibility in between - OTS-CL still gives you best breathing results - except for one unit, all the commercially available systems use some form of electronics (even if only for display) that was more or less designed over a decade ago and received little change since then - and, might I suggest, not because it is already perfect (IMHO) - Training is as important to the usage as the system itself. There seem to be 50% commonalities between systems, and 50% uniqueness required in training. I hear more and more that training overall seems very poor, with lots of people receiving vertification without having the required knowledge (I am not bashing here as I did not mention any specific agencies, just repeating the "talk on the street") - Open-water requirements for a rebreather are probably very much different than cave-requirements? (up for discussion) If the only type of diving was non-cave, I would probably make a different decision for rebreather puchase. I'm sure there were more lessons learned, but I can't remember them at the moment, and lunch break is over - Joerg
(Offline)

3rd October 2006, 14:02	#5 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Very nice article... Thanks for taking the time to share. __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
(Offline)

3rd October 2006, 16:08	#6 (permalink)
Joe Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 273	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Nice article. I'm using a Meg because I felt it was the unit that best suited my needs. The reasons I use it for cave diving are several. First, I do not think it is a good idea to switch back and forth OC to CC. You need to maintain, perfect and refine a skill set that allows you to continuously improve.....always...the training mentality should never end. Second is that I believe it enhances safety for the reasons you already mentioned. Third is that it permits greater access due to its ease of portability. Obviously, this is somewhat limited by the need for bailout gasses but, nonetheless, it is still far easier to transport than OC. There was one aspect of this which your article did not mention and that is discipline. I believe discipline is the most important attribute a diver can have, especially a CCR diver in a cave where it is soooo easy to successfully exceed your limits and get away with it so often that is seems safe to do....until the day something goes wrong, which could take years to happen. While experience is a very important asset to have I think discipline is even more important. Joe Quote: (Originally Posted by cedricverdier) Hi all, I just posted an article about CCRs and cave diving: why are they a good tool for cave exploration and what are their limits. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...html#post70397 (will I get some "green" for this one??) I'm interested to know who are the Rebreather World members who use a CCR for cave diving, which CCR and why? Cheers
(Offline)

3rd October 2006, 22:49	#7 (permalink)
cedricverdier S21 M.I.B. Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Worldwide! Posts: 497	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by York) C, I'm sure there were more lessons learned, but I can't remember them at the moment, and lunch break is over - Joerg Hi Joerg, Thanks for the comments. As soon as you have another lunch break, feel free to add more comments! Cheers __________________ Cedric Verdier PADI Course Director, ANDI-IANTD-PSAI-TDI-DSAT-DAN-NAUI-CMAS Instructor Trainer Trimix (CCR and OC) and Cave Diving Instructor Trainer www.CedricVerdier.com DIRrebreather member
(Offline)

4th October 2006, 01:33	#8 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,100	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Thanks cedric, good info to retain. Dave (wedivebc), MikeP and I are heading to Mexico in january to do full CCR Cave with Matt at protec, I am looking forward to an excellent course and learning the ins and (especially) the outs of cave diving on CCR. thanks again for taking the time to do the write up. __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
(Offline)

4th October 2006, 01:48	#9 (permalink)
Mixaddict Always Learning! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Draper, Utah USA Posts: 476	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe) There was one aspect of this which your article did not mention and that is discipline. I believe discipline is the most important attribute a diver can have, especially a CCR diver in a cave where it is soooo easy to successfully exceed your limits and get away with it so often that is seems safe to do....until the day something goes wrong, which could take years to happen. While experience is a very important asset to have I think discipline is even more important. Joe Joe, I'm a YBOD diver in open water and an avid OC diver in caves. I have not felt quite comfortable as of yet to go for the CCR in caves. Hopefully, this year will see me try my YBOD in the Florida caves. I have thought long and hard for some time about the same thing in quotes above. It is so easy to become complacent regarding distance with a CCR in a cave. I have read several times on this board, people claiming that cave diving on CCR is no big deal, but for me, it is a huge leap going from OC to CCR in a cave. In some ways, I wonder if the people who have gone directly to Cave CCR training and bypassing OC Cave training, really develope an appreciation for the extreme nature of this type of diving. As you and Cedric have mentioned, there are certainly a lot of benefits to CCR Cave diving, I just hope that people have sufficient respect for the real challenges. I look forward to crossing over to this type of cave exploration soon. Regards, Randy __________________ Randy Thornton (MixAddict) Inspiration, Evolution,Hammerhead & Sentinel CCR Instructor
(Offline)

4th October 2006, 02:00	#10 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Hi Cedric, thanks for the excellent article. You summed up all the benefits and concerns that come with CCR cave diving very well. And I agree, a HUD is crucial, as it is in all CCR diving, IMHO. The flexability in time management and range of exploration is really the biggest adavntage of CCR cave diving. Very good point about the dil mix having a much bigger range for exploration/unexpected depth changes than having to anticipate/guess for an OC mix. -Andy
(Offline)

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